Oakdale NSW crash - One Dead

[turboplanner]

I found a serious flaw with the way the ATSB investigates ! When some who is connected in some way to an accident they have to sign a privacy form that they can not discuss the details with anybody ! This then silences the critics of their investigation ! I found this to be against all of our rights ! The way ATSB operates is not in everyone's interest, when no one who knows the facts can say anything !The police have been trained to investigate aviation accidents and I don't know if they make you sign anything other than a statement.

That's not a flaw, it's a legal procedure.

An ATSB report is not like a post on RF where anyone can cat call, put their own theories, or claim that [insert CASA, ATSB or any other nemesis] are a the sons of secret Nazis who will bend the truth to get us.

 

 

[coljones]

I found a serious flaw with the way the ATSB investigates ! When some who is connected in some way to an accident they have to sign a privacy form that they can not discuss the details with anybody ! This then silences the critics of their investigation ! I found this to be against all of our rights ! The way ATSB operates is not in everyone's interest, when no one who knows the facts can say anything !The police have been trained to investigate aviation accidents and I don't know if they make you sign anything other than a statement.

You can criticise the investigation - you must, however be circumspect in dealing with your version of the facts. All you have to do is look at the behaviour of media commentators, mainly from News Corp, 2GB, 2UE & 3AW who, on the flimsiest of information, will establish a royal commission and, with no evidence presented, establish guilt before moving on to their next victim. Pissants!!

 

 

[boleropilot]

I just want to know if there is a mechanical/structural problem there that could cost me my life - not much to ask for really...

 

but yeah I get it, it's a goatrope, but there's gotta be a better way - just maybe we can get a better system in place...probably not....

 

BP

 

PS

 

don't know what a goatrope is? tie a goat to a tree with a 100 foot piece of rope, in a paddock full of trees = one goatrope coming up!

 

 

[fly_tornado]

@boleropilot if your really worried have a mechanic inspect your plane

[FlyingVizsla]

RAA have trained investigators who assist the Police. In some instances (admittedly rare) RAA issues a notice regarding structural/operational issues, worded so as to avoid compromising the on-going investigation by the Coroner. An example of this is 4 March 2016 email to members:-

 

"Open and Transparent Communication

 

 

 

RAAus is committed to providing members with timely and relevant feedback on a range of issues. The note below pertains to a recent fatal accident. Where we can, we will provide members with information as soon as possible to provide assurance and address any safety concerns that may be apparent. Timing of this advice may change from time to time given the available information and circumstances. Our prime goal is to keep members informed and it is important to remember that any advice issued at this early stage is preliminary in nature and is subject to change as investigations continue.

 

 

 

Accident at Katoomba Airport 27 February 2016

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

RAAus is saddened to advise members of the death of Mr Rod Hay. Mr Hay died in an accident at Katoomba Airport on 27 February 2016 involving Jabiru 55-3692.

 

 

 

The damage to nearby trees in conjunction with the extensive damage to the propeller and lack of visible external damage to the engine indicates the engine appeared to be operating at impact. To fully examine the engine, RAAus is conducting a supervised engine tear down with officials from ATSB and Jabiru.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The control systems of the aircraft were all confirmed as connected to key points after impact and all damage is consistent with impact damage.

 

At present our preliminary assessment of the evidence appears to support a possible loss of control with the cause as yet undetermined. RAAus will continue to work with authorities on the investigation and advise members again once we have more information."

 

 

There have been other "advice" released, but not publicly linked to a particular accident. RAA has to tread a fine line between disseminating their own opinion quickly, which may compromise the on-going investigation, and keeping it to themselves until the Coroner's report is finalised, given it may not be made public. RAA have been trying to tread this fine line, and I give them thanks for doing as much as they have so far. Reading the "occurence reports" is an education, there is a fair bit to learn there. Log onto RAA - safety & read.

 

 

 

[vixen]

Wouldn't a good, simple, inexpensive start be to fit every RAA a/c flight with a Gopro or equiv? Yes I know it doesn't prove the cause of an accident but it may provide some strong clues?

 

 

[Bats]

Gawd I'm starting to feel old, it's all very laudable wanting to stop people from killing themselves, but the layers of cotton wool are starting to smother too. Where do we draw the line - mandate medicals for all (not 100% effective anyway), compulsory BRS, compulsory helmets, compulsory fire proof clothing, the list goes on... All would improve the odds of surviving in some circumstances, but do you really want Big Brother insisting? I don't.

 

The bottom line is that as pointed out in several posts above, RAAus accidents are investigated, just not always by the ATSB and the findings aren't published in the same way. It takes a small amount of effort on the individual's part though to read forums such as this, read the coroner's report if there is the remotest chance it may have a bearing on your operation, read the notices RA-Aus put out as referred to by Flying Vizla - the information is out there, just not spoon fed, so exercise a little personal responsibility and initiative, and seek it out.

 

In any event, the ATSB aren't some all seeing, all knowing clan of wizards either. Some of their reports have been less than brilliant and many have vociferously disagreed with their findings. Does the Great Jabiru Furball of 2015 ring any bells?

 

To expand on what I said in an earlier post, if I spear my tandem recumbent bicycle into the scenery at 100 and plenty, scribbling myself and AN Other - do we really need the ATSB to investigate and decide that I was riding like a goose, or that my home-brewed braking system was held together with cable ties and wishful thinking? I'd suggest not. Why then is private aviation so different?

 

 

[Oscar]

The simple answer to the question: 'Why is private aviation so different?' lies in the media attention that every aircraft crash receives. Even, sometimes, a 'precautionary' landing is treated as a 'crash' by the media...

 

There is a massive dichotomy here for us and it encompasses almost every aspect of our activity: legal, financial, utility.

 

On the one hand, we ask for decent access to airspace, facilities etc. We ask for the possibility of insurance for our sometimes $150k-plus aircraft at reasonable rates. We ask for a decent level of professional back-up, in the form of standards and maintenance to standards, so that we can actually enjoy our activity in the expectation that we will NOT be killed or injured, and that we can take our loved ones, our friends, and just those who would like to experience flight up with us without deliberately placing them at some huge risk.

 

On the other hand, we - or at least a considerable portion of 'we' - seem to object strenuously to any form of restriction on our right to do what the bloody hell we please, because it is 'our choice'.

 

Now: a caveat here before I proceed further: should I ever decide to attach ten weather balloons to a plastic deckchair and add my ceiling fan to my whipper-snipper and go fly around my property at under 500 feet, and some CASA bastard comes out to stop me, I WILL be removing my gun from its safe and perforating his (or her) vehicle and quite probably introducing spasm incontinence from close exposure to supersonic lead projectiles. However, I will ALSO have told my descendants that 'Papa may not be coming home again' before I take-off, and left a signed and witnessed statement for them to provide to the media that I fully understood the risk involved in being a F-wit and my demise was entirely due to my own stupidity...

 

The whole and only point of crash investigation, is to determine the cause(s) and thereby attempt to remove such causality for the future. Since we cannot legislate effectively against stupidity - fools are always more innovative than legislation can predict - all we can do here is enhance the envelope of protection.

 

High-quality aircraft crash investigation, with appropriate follow-up - is a major tool in enhancing the envelope of protection.

 

RAA management receives a vast amount of negative opinion - and it is certainly the case that RAA resources are inadequate to do expert investigation of all crashes. BUT, I submit, the expertise in RAA is not inadequate: I submit the case of the Morgan Sierra crash at Moruya, where a decent level of forensic investigation showed that a totally faulty securing mechanism for the elevator control killed two people. Rectification of that will save lives.

 

Another example: A Thorpe T-18 crash, quite some years ago, where a fully-qualified and current airline pilot was killed in what was initially classified as a CFIT incident, with a preliminary conclusion of a medical / fatigue cause. I won't go into all the details, but an expert crash investigator and aero-engineer was called into the Coronial Inquiry by the Police and he found that the cause was in fact CO ingestion into a negative-pressure cockpit due to a fine crack in the under-floor area just aft of the exhaust outlets. It took a secondary autopsy to examine the CO levels in the body to show that the pilot was dead, probably many minutes - possibly as many as 30- before the properly-trimmed aircraft hit the ground due to fuel exhaustion.

 

If we - as a group - of Recreational Aviators want to be treated as 'responsible' members of society, then we MUST also accept the constraints of membership of society. I absolutely believe that there are many refinements of the 'rules' that we operate under to qualify us as 'responsible', 'safe' etc. but we need to try to refine the rules, not simply ether accept OR reject them.

 

 

[KRviator]

Wouldn't a good, simple, inexpensive start be to fit every RAA a/c flight with a Gopro or equiv? Yes I know it doesn't prove the cause of an accident but it may provide some strong clues?

It comes down to the individual owner too. I have a Dynon SkyView system that records flight, autopilot, navigation & engine information to the datalog twice a second. To supplement that, I installed an automotive dash camera to the rollbar looking over my shoulder & out the canopy, so if I do come to grief, not only do they have the data log, but HD video of my actions leading up to, and during, the event.Now, not everyone can afford, or wants to install, a similar EFIS setup, but even something as simple as the dashcam costs less than $200 and could provide valuable information in the event of an incident.

 

 

[storchy neil]

you don't expect raa to tell you the truth do you even with a black box fitted to your aircraft they raa and casa would not allow us to know what went wrong as it will impede on freedom of information and not be political correct as it might upset some one

 

back in 2008 I informed RAAUS and CASA that an L4 LAME had repaired an aircraft without the repair manuals for said aircraft their response was stiff shit you sort it out and I have that in writing

 

I don't trust the so called experts at the top neil

 

 

[boleropilot]

at this point in time I have no concerns whatsoever about the structural integrity of Fisher and Drifter aircraft

 

BP

 

 

[Geoff13]

An interesting email from RAA puts many of these concerns to rest for those willing to look with and open mind.

 

 

[robinsm]

An interesting email from RAA puts many of these concerns to rest for those willing to look with and open mind.

Where is the email and when was it sent<

 

 

[Admin]

RAAus is saddened to advise our community of two fatalities which have occurred over the last fortnight.

 

Times like these are difficult for everyone involved in our movement and we'd like to express deep sympathy to the families and local communities who are grieving these losses.

 

Devonport, TAS

 

On Saturday 4 March 2017, RAAus member Milfred Knight was killed in an aircraft accident. He was flying an amateur built Avid Flyer in the Devonport region of Tasmania.

 

As always, RAAus is assisting local police with an investigation and one of our trained and qualified accident consultants attended the scene of the accident.

 

RAAus would like to remind members to be particularly aware of all service and mandatory bulletins associated with the safe and continual operation of aircraft registered with RAAus. Specifically, members should review AN 08082014 Rev2 regarding flight control duplicate inspections, available here.

 

Further information on this incident will be issued when it becomes available.

 

Oakdale, NSW

 

On Friday 10 March, RAAus member Amrinder Singh was killed in an aircraft accident. He was flying an amateur built Fisher Mk1 aircraft in the vicinity of The Oaks airfield in New South Wales.

 

RAAus is assisting local police with an investigation and a trained and qualified accident consultant also attended the scene of the accident. At this stage, there are no safety or mechanical related factors that members need to be aware of. Our investigation will continue and we will provide a further update in due course.

 

 

[bull]

It comes down to the individual owner too. I have a Dynon SkyView system that records flight, autopilot, navigation & engine information to the datalog twice a second. To supplement that, I installed an automotive dash camera to the rollbar looking over my shoulder & out the canopy, so if I do come to grief, not only do they have the data log, but HD video of my actions leading up to, and during, the event.Now, not everyone can afford, or wants to install, a similar EFIS setup, but even something as simple as the dashcam costs less than $200 and could provide valuable information in the event of an incident.

Well done there KRviator,,, bit more sophisticated then my high tech inexpensive blackboard and chalk [all I can bring my self to waste on recording my flights around the paddock at 50kts :alone; not because no,one will fly with me but because I,ve only got one seat]

 

 

[spacesailor]

B

 

that's the best (one-seater), no second pilot telling you which way to fly!.

 

spacesailor

 

 

[kasper]

Well RAAus send an email and re-issue the dual inspection requirement ... they still have not clarified how the hell its supposed to apply to RAAus aircraft that are designed to be derigged and have control systems that come apart ... technically I need to have a second approved person review the trike every time I take the wing out of the bag and every time I drop the wing off the trike. Complete GA overkill based on the assumption all aircraft properly belong fully assembled at all times. So sick of RAAus and their lack of actual care and concern for how their GA drive and rule changes impact actual operators.

 

 

[Happyflyer]

Well RAAus send an email and re-issue the dual inspection requirement ... they still have not clarified how the hell its supposed to apply to RAAus aircraft that are designed to be derigged and have control systems that come apart ... technically I need to have a second approved person review the trike every time I take the wing out of the bag and every time I drop the wing off the trike. Complete GA overkill based on the assumption all aircraft properly belong fully assembled at all times. So sick of RAAus and their lack of actual care and concern for how their GA drive and rule changes impact actual operators.

Have you considered this: The reminder for dual inspections is linked together with the accident in Tasmania. I read that as the investigator finding some preliminary evidence of a failure in the flight control system and RAAus letting us know and learn from this tragic accident.

 

 

[kasper]

Have you considered this: The reminder for dual inspections is linked together with the accident in Tasmania. I read that as the investigator finding some preliminary evidence of a failure in the flight control system and RAAus letting us know and learn from this tragic accident.

But the base issue of incompatibility of the dual inspection with actual aircraft design that is a core of a significant section of the older fleet and ALL flexwing aircraft and ALL ppc is not addressed by RAAus ... despite it being raised with tech when the original dual inspection was introduced.

 

 

[farri]

The numbers of deaths certainly warrant a higher focus on prevention.

I`d say the focus on prevention has been occurring since the early days of the AUF and yet the accidents continue...What are you proposing as a higher focus on prevention?

 

Frank.

 

 

[storchy neil]

well kasper when they decide on that hell will freeze over as the storch s has folding wings as do other aircraft were control cables and pins are removed to fold wings

 

as I see regs it is illegal for me to fold the wings am I right neil

 

 

[Bats]

No not at all, but you do need a duplicate inspection before you fly, after re-assembly.

 

 

[red750]

The Ercoupe was designed without a rudder. Coincidentally, its nosewheel was connected to the control wheel to be steered like a car. Presumably the pedals I have seen in some cockpit photos are only independent brakes, but that's just a guess.

 

 

[Bats]

The only one I've flown did have rudders, interconnected with the aileron control on the yoke. I believe some were retrofitted with conventional rudder controls via pedals.

 

 

[Blueadventures]

But the base issue of incompatibility of the dual inspection with actual aircraft design that is a core of a significant section of the older fleet and ALL flexwing aircraft and ALL ppc is not addressed by RAAus ... despite it being raised with tech when the original dual inspection was introduced.

Dual inspection is not only to verify that the control system is connected correctly but also that the methods of security of any connectections are correct IAW manufactures instructions. Skyranger in the UK have a sticker showing the aileron wire run as needing to cross above the panel. That would have been due to some unfortunate connection of the wires in parallel which meant the ailerons moved in the opposite sense. Therefore I support fully the requirement of a second set of eyes. I for instance always have after rigging, gone away done something else had a drink etc then come back and re check my fitup. Then get the dual inspection done. Just my way. Cheers Mike