ave8rr Posted March 12, 2017 Posted March 12, 2017 Legal process; ATSB have the necessary exemptions which the State Police apparently don't have. Simple. Allow the State police to hand over their Report to the ATSB for publication. ATSB seem to publish findings when asked for support by other parties e.g. RAAus, NZCAA and othe external agencies.
Downunder Posted March 12, 2017 Posted March 12, 2017 ATSB. Keen to bask in the glory of international investigations. Don't give a d@m about those who actually pay for their services (tax payers of Australia) and succumb to injuries from accidents they should be investigating...... 1
SDQDI Posted March 12, 2017 Posted March 12, 2017 We should think ourselves lucky that they investigate the few that they do. Compare it to road prangs, it would be nice if we got detailed reports on each road prang so that we could become safer drivers but in reality it won't happen. 4
Bernie Knight Posted March 12, 2017 Posted March 12, 2017 Sad to hear of any accident car or aircraft where a life is lost. A young wife and child will need the support of those around them. Whilst I don't know the pilot or his family I feel for their sorrow and the sadness experienced by those who know them. Thoughts and prays for all. 4
boleropilot Posted March 12, 2017 Posted March 12, 2017 Simple. Allow the State police to hand over their Report to the ATSB for publication. ATSB seem to publish findings when asked for support by other parties e.g. RAAus, NZCAA and othe external agencies. good point, but how much does the average walloper know about aircraft accidents - very little I would expect, even from those who have attended a few best to have qualified, experienced aviators attending the scene and conducting a professional examination of the factors and then have the results of that examination communicated to fellow aviators anybody who doesn't think that could save lives is dreaming BP 1
spacesailor Posted March 12, 2017 Posted March 12, 2017 Is there no one able to get access to the site (of the accident) that could take high resolution photo's, mainly to preserve the "impact evidence". Or should I keep shut-up. ( I have met the person, he was a great fellow flyer) spacesailor 1
planedriver Posted March 12, 2017 Posted March 12, 2017 Tragic! A lovely guy taken too young. Will be missed by all family and friends. A real kick in the guts for those that had the pleasure of his company, or flew with him. Rest in peace mate. 1 1
Mick Posted March 13, 2017 Posted March 13, 2017 Why are the results of any official enquiry, & their conclusions, not published down the track?They are in UK & USA, where no doubt they are felt to be of benefit to the flying community. Has anyone tried accessing these reports under FOI? I can understand the respect for the family of the deceased, but after 6 months or so any findings are unlikely to make national news, so would not impact on the loved ones. But they certainly (in my view) should be released into the aviation community, or available online for the asking. It is, after all, an enquiry to establish the cause of the accident. And who would benefit most from knowing that, if not fellow aviators? Bruce Legal process; ATSB have the necessary exemptions which the State Police apparently don't have.As we've seen above, there is also pressure to cover up these things. We have this discussion almost every time there is a fatality. These laws / rules are man made and as such can be changed. Why is RAAus not lobbying to get this changed for the safety of all? Certainly this should be of higher priority than focusing on increased weight limits or CTA? . 8 1
shafs64 Posted March 13, 2017 Posted March 13, 2017 I going to put this out there. if there was some sort of airframe failure. And he had a ballistic chute lives might of been saved 3
spacesailor Posted March 13, 2017 Posted March 13, 2017 Who has the wreckage !, Cannot an L2 examiner or someone with the knowledge of the Drifter get to check-out the cables controls etc., Just a thought about loss of control. Would also like to know how the HummelBird pilot is mending, WA serpentine airfield. spacesailor
Admin Posted March 13, 2017 Posted March 13, 2017 Sometimes a wreckage will just not let out the secrets of what happened no matter how much analysis is done...maybe we just will never know 1
turboplanner Posted March 13, 2017 Posted March 13, 2017 We have this discussion almost every time there is a fatality.These laws / rules are man made and as such can be changed. Why is RAAus not lobbying to get this changed for the safety of all? Certainly this should be of higher priority than focusing on increased weight limits or CTA? . You can judge the RAA skills by the current move to increase weight limits, and what that will mean to statistics. I've mentioned the impediments to changing the law a few time, but if you want to get it first hand, go down to your local Police Station and talk to the Sergeant about the process of accident investigation, preparation for the brief for the Coroner, and why the Police can't release the details of their brief, which may include input from RAA investigators. Personally, I think the best long term outcome for ATSB to investigate all fatals including RAA; that may require different levels of investigation to control costs. For example, in the case of an obvious cause of crash/blatant breach of regulation, no investigation, with steps up to the current full level investigation. The numbers of deaths certainly warrant a higher focus on prevention. 2
Bats Posted March 13, 2017 Posted March 13, 2017 We have this discussion almost every time there is a fatality.These laws / rules are man made and as such can be changed. Why is RAAus not lobbying to get this changed for the safety of all? Certainly this should be of higher priority than focusing on increased weight limits or CTA? . I'm open to correction, but my impression is that ATSB don't even investigate every GA accident thanks to budgetary and manpower constraints . Their focus is predominately on commercial operations, although they do sometimes stick their oar in when there is a potential systemic problem in private ops. I have to say that I can live with that approach, if I were to scribble myself thanks to a car or boating accident, I wouldn't expect any more than the police looking into it and presenting their findings to the coroner. 1 3
boleropilot Posted March 13, 2017 Posted March 13, 2017 If it was structural failure then there is even more reason why RAAus accidents need to be investigated by aviation accident professionals - the Fisher (as the Drifter) has a reputation for being a very robust airframe, but they are getting on - mine has 3,500 hours and if there is a ticking time bomb there somewhere we need to know about it. I've only heard of one structural failure in a Drifter that resulted in a fatal accident, and that was one on floats (in the US) that was in perfect condition - what the owner didn't know was that there was corrosion inside the boom at the tail of the aircraft, and it was in a place that there was no option for inspection. When it failed the tail came off. I am 66 now and, my lord, I love my Drifter - but this one has really got me thinking - might be time for me to get safer (and go back to paragliding)....or buy a ballistic parachute? Mind you, if the aircraft was inverted the ballistic 'chute may have been out of parameters for safe deployment... BP 1
kasper Posted March 13, 2017 Posted March 13, 2017 I going to put this out there. if there was some sort of airframe failure. And he had a ballistic chute lives might of been saved Always a possibility. BUT as a drifter and thruster flyer of many years ie old school rag tube and wires ... the handling and speeds of these airframes would mean that realistically I would only ever pull the big red handle with catastrophic airframe failure or complete loss of control ... both thankfully rare. As another drifter driver has said we'd love to know what led to what appears to be one of those very rare occurrences or pilot incapacitation ... Always sad to hear of a death and thoughts go out to those who knew him and his family. 1
shafs64 Posted March 13, 2017 Posted March 13, 2017 Was the accident investigated with the guy doing aero in the drifter and wing failed. I remember reading what looked like a official report. 1
seb7701 Posted March 13, 2017 Posted March 13, 2017 Was the accident investigated with the guy doing aero in the drifter and wing failed. I remember reading what looked like a official report. Yep, it was a normal coroner's investigation from memory, as I remember reading about a few of the behavioural issues which had become apparent in the lead-up to the incident. 1 1
planedriver Posted March 13, 2017 Posted March 13, 2017 I like so many others, are sick of hearing that the findings of many of these incidents are never published. Surely to God something can be done if enough are behind it. Publication of the findings if you own a XYZ, or whatever aircraft would make you check over your own with a fine tooth comb, so you don't become the next statistic making the headlines. If they can do it overseas which should contribute to safer sky's, and all concerned, why not here? There's always plenty of excuses, but they are not helpful to the cause. How can we all get together to fulfill this aim? If we don't try, that's all you ever achieve, Jack Sh*t, and no-one is any better off. Maybe we need a forum specifically for this purpose, and a spokesperson such as Dick Smith to do some lobbying on our behalf? What do you think we can do to constructively achieve this, or do we just sit back and accept the way things currently are? 2 1
planedriver Posted March 13, 2017 Posted March 13, 2017 There was an MP who was a pilot and making noises about saving an airport I think. I'm not sure of his name, but someone would know. Maybe he could be contacted and get behind making a few changes for the benefit of all who fly in the name of safety, rather than going along with beaurocratic bull-sh*t by those who really do very little that's constructive to safety.
turboplanner Posted March 13, 2017 Posted March 13, 2017 I like so many others, are sick of hearing that the findings of many of these incidents are never published. Surely to God something can be done if enough are behind it. Publication of the findings if you own a XYZ, or whatever aircraft would make you check over your own with a fine tooth comb, so you don't become the next statistic making the headlines.If they can do it overseas which should contribute to safer sky's, and all concerned, why not here? There's always plenty of excuses, but they are not helpful to the cause. How can we all get together to fulfill this aim? If we don't try, that's all you ever achieve, Jack Sh*t, and no-one is any better off. Maybe we need a forum specifically for this purpose, and a spokesperson such as Dick Smith to do some lobbying on our behalf? What do you think we can do to constructively achieve this, or do we just sit back and accept the way things currently are? It's a legal issue rather than a political one, abd it involves not just the Federal Government, but all States and Territories, so it's not a matter of grabbing the ear of this politician or that. In fact, the quickest way to fix is is to absorb RA into GA, otherwise you need to be very good at legal drafting of a complex situation. 1 1
boleropilot Posted March 13, 2017 Posted March 13, 2017 I agree with the above comments, particularly those about making some noise and trying to get something done about investigations and reporting. If it's a legal issue then there are laws that govern it and laws can be changed. I'm with planedriver and am going to start investigating exactly what the situation is and will be trying to get some official comment from as many 'authorities' as possible as a starting point. As soon as I get something to publish I'll start a thread on this forum - in the meantime, anyone who can give me concrete info on how the situation stands now, pls pm me. BP 1 2
SDQDI Posted March 13, 2017 Posted March 13, 2017 You have to be careful what you wish for. The best way to get something investigated is through the atsb BUT it would come at a huge cost to investigate every little prang and that cost would have to be payed by someone. Most taxpayers couldn't care less about little planes and people flying for fun and there is always the perception that anyone who flys is rich so they will not want to foot the bill for us and any pollie with their head screwed on right can see that sooo the logical way would be for a user pays system. That would not be good for us as a whole imo. I DON'T think that the RAA should be aloud to publish investigation reports as that will open us up to litigation that will increase costs which again is not in our best interest. I do believe they should pass on any information on defects that have been identified but nothing further to that. So I don't think there is a perfect solution, it would be nice to have the atsb investigate all prangs but it just isn't economically viable. 4
Camel Posted March 13, 2017 Posted March 13, 2017 I found a serious flaw with the way the ATSB investigates ! When some who is connected in some way to an accident they have to sign a privacy form that they can not discuss the details with anybody ! This then silences the critics of their investigation ! I found this to be against all of our rights ! The way ATSB operates is not in everyone's interest, when no one who knows the facts can say anything ! The police have been trained to investigate aviation accidents and I don't know if they make you sign anything other than a statement. 1 1
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