RAA and Twin Engines.

[Geoff13]

From todays board meeting, the second topic under aircraft. Admittedly they quite clearly state no interest at this time but rule nothing out.

 

"The second issue was the opportunity for multi engine aircraft to sit on the RAAus register. The Board did not rule anything out, but felt at this stage we have ample strategies on our agenda and as such should see those through first before exploring further technical changes".

 

Your thoughts please. .

 

 

[BJFly]

Their dreaming, enough issues falling through cracks to be trying that on!

 

Just imagine the little trade-offs that would occur, before you know it we'll be knee deep in Lame's, regulations, medical requirements, ahhhhhh the mind boggles!

 

 

[SSCBD]

Quick answer so far

 

TWO ways to take this

 

1. IF IT GOES AHEAD - I can see a class f cat will be made for twins - but what size and weight - very vague on what they said. Assuming existing Piper Cessna twins or are they talking about LSA only type 750kg that could be made now at that weight.

 

Even if it limited to piston only GA type piper lets say, and not for charter commercial operations ie private use only, the standard will still have to be the current GA training and maintenance. These things that are say six to eight seats are tricky to fly at limits and engine failures.

 

They as stated looking for increased revenues and membership. However how they will cost this is anyone's guess.

 

2. But is see LSA type twins being built with 750kg this is think is coming anyway. So if its LSA type all for it - BUT those who fly it will need GA twin training and endorsement. Then I don't have any problems - as long as user pays and it will not impact the lower levels of RAA planes and costs involved.

 

 

[Bats]

Probably prompted by the Jab twin of which there is at least one in Aus. 2 by 4 cyl engines, bolted onto a J430 firewall, with the appropriate fairing. Otherwise I suppose someone may want to experiment with multiple electric motors, but overall I wouldn't have thought there was much call for the category.

 

 

[Icarus]

Possibly for aircraft like the cri cri.

 

Does hybrid engine technology count as two engines? I remember reading about an electric motor placed at the prop hub which could be used for a short time during take off and combustion engine failure. about 20kg plus battery

 

Also multiple smaller electric motors are being experimented with I believe.

 

Small turbines would be nice , especially for the mosquito type helicopters. they look like scary fun

 

 

[Downunder]

I see it as a push towards the cri cri (as above), electric powered and something like Lazair's .....definately not GA twins of any sort....Perhaps current LSA types within the existing flight specs.

 

 

 

[fly_tornado]

I thought twins died off due to the high operating costs and maintenance? Surely they aren't thinking of allowing something like the aircam into RAA?

 

 

[SSCBD]

I thought twins died off due to the high operating costs and maintenance? Surely they aren't thinking of allowing something like the aircam into RAA?

Why not. Some people are rich - not me though. Its also the next stage of LSA in Europe I would assume as a few designs are coming out and one was built don't remember the name of it.

 

 

[jetjr]

Multiple electric options should be safer and fairlly simple.

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

The performance and handling with one engine out would be the thing which should rule a particular aircraft in or out of RAAus. The Jabiru with 2 engines close together is a completely different proposition to a normal twin where it is so dangerous to fly with one engine out that they stopped doing stuff even for training.

 

There was a Cessna with 2 centerline engines, was this easier to get to fly than a normal twin? It should have been.

 

 

[geoffreywh]

Twins ? in RAA ? FFS

 

 

[Geoff13]

I thought twins died off due to the high operating costs and maintenance? Surely they aren't thinking of allowing something like the aircam into RAA?

Aircam. Tell me where to buy one. Now I think about it can you get a twin endorsment on the RPL. Lol

 

 

[Happyflyer]

Aircam. Tell me where to buy one. Now I think about it can you get a twin endorsment on the RPL. Lol

RPL limited to single engine aircraft. Licence types | Civil Aviation Safety Authority

 

 

[Bats]

Slight jog off topic, but WTF is this caution button about? Seems to be used as some sort of passive-aggressive way of disagreeing with people without actually sticking your neck out and making a statement which can be debated in turn. Grates my gears to be honest.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

@Bats if you use a touch screen it tends to get hit when you are scrolling

[coljones]

From todays board meeting, the second topic under aircraft. Admittedly they quite clearly state no interest at this time but rule nothing out."The second issue was the opportunity for multi engine aircraft to sit on the RAAus register. The Board did not rule anything out, but felt at this stage we have ample strategies on our agenda and as such should see those through first before exploring further technical changes".

 

Your thoughts please. .

Interesting!! There is a small bird called the Cri-Cri ("Cricket") which looks interesting

https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjyl-uisdXSAhVHfbwKHSWaCqUQtwIIJjAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dknb3qNq-Uho&usg=AFQjCNGaw88nI__RphWQVh19fuJLWjRzIA&sig2=-_rJVYa3q261ngVMt7haEQ

 

AUF/RAA was founded on the basis that you did what you could to go flying and there were, probably, many twin, trimotor and even 4 engine McCullogh chainsaw powered planes in the early fleet. Bleriot and Mongolfier didn't get into the air by being afraid to change rules and perceptions.

 

Jabiru seems to be doing a fair job with their twin.

 

 

[Deskpilot]

My 2 pence worth. To me, asymmetric flying on a one engine failure always seemed to be the most obvious reason to rule out twins. However, why not make a ruling on the width between engines to minimize the risk, or allow push pull systems. Twin, coaxial props should also be allowed, contra-rotating of course, on single engine types.

 

 

[SSCBD]

Ok so how many here have flown twins.

 

May I suggest those who have not for your birthday go a fly one, say a baron 58, an Aerostar is really fun as well, its a bit sporty, and ask the instructor to give you a engine out at height. Then try climbing and turning. Next ask him to let you fly the circuit engine out and put on a stable final flying down the centre line.

 

Next try a if he will let you of show you an engine failure at takeoff at say 200ft. Enjoy. Things will happen very, very fast and dont forget the downwind checks and speed / height control. It is well beyond some people. And by the way this will all be done empty as he wont put 4 other people in the plane to increase the weight and tolerance you fly at not.

 

Some are very easy to fly engine out say the partenavia p68 or the piper dutchess which are tooooo easy and only a 4 seat.

 

I GURANTEE that those who have not ever flown a twin will come out mentally exhausted and sweating.

 

ENJOY.

 

 

[ben87r]

I can't think of any certified twins under 1500kg so even if that was the limit it seems that the 'cri cri types' would be what they would be considering.

 

Flying conventional twins safely is above the level of skill set and currency of most private/rec flyers and shouldn't be in RA. Even the best/experienced have stuffed up OEI sequences, in a training environment, with an empty aircraft, with horrendous outcomes.

 

With all this talk recently about NVFR/IFR and now twins, I agree with SSCBD, I think a bit of exposure would be a good thing.

 

 

[Downunder]

Talking about grabbing the baton and running with it!!!!!

 

NO ONE IS TALKING ABOUT OR PUSHING FOR TWIN GA AIRCRAFT IN RAA AS I SEE IT.

 

 

[Xavier]

Tecnam P2006T with twin rotax 912 - MTOW 1230KG

[SSCBD]

Talking about grabbing the baton and running with it!!!!!NO ONE IS TALKING ABOUT OR PUSHING FOR TWIN GA AIRCRAFT IN RAA AS I SEE IT.

YET!

 

 

[Downunder]

Ok, I'll give you that...lol.....

 

But I don't see it in my lifetime...... more than 600kg has been on the cards for 10 years and still not passed.....

 

 

[red750]

partenavia p68 or the piper dutchess which are tooooo easy

I think you are confusing the Beechcraft BE76 Duchess and the Piper PA-34 Seneca.

 

Duchess

 

 

Seneca

 

 

 

[Downunder]

Tecnam P2006T with twin rotax 912 - MTOW 1230KG

Not much I dislike about that aircraft....except the range and probably the price.

 

Make it a 2 seater with an empty weight of 819kgs.... and add some fuel capacity.

 

150kt cruise for the running costs of 2 x 912's...... count me in!!