Any ATPL holders on here?

[aplund]

I am interested in your progression to getting the highest level of license.

 

After calculating the costs of my PPL I tried estimating the rough costs CPL and ATPL. I came up with roughly $70,000 for CPL and $400,000 for ATPL given _current_ costs for General Aviation. This is just an estimate of the money spent on gaining hours of experience. Additional costs of landing/airways fees, medicals, maps/charts/software, theory courses, briefings, etc. I did not estimate.

 

Granted once you get a CPL you can make money and someone else will pay for much of the plane, but anecdotally it's not massive salary by any means. So I'd be interested in clarifying any of these anecdotes.

 

It's interesting to note that for tertiary level education for Australians eligible for Commonwealth places you are looking at about $50,000 for your undergraduate degree (one rough source: Courses and Programs - The University of Queensland, Australia).

 

Are these costs a new thing? What was it like 30 years ago? Are there ways around the costs of gaining the requisite experience? Are there other ways which don't involve engaging in General Aviation?

 

What is unclear in my mind is how in the future Australian pilots are going to achieve the highest levels of achievement in Aviation if the lowest levels are as dysfunctional as it appears at the moment.

 

 

[ben87r]

I would say your estimate for a CPL would be be correct for a bare CPL only, and over 100k would be a good guess and average for a CPL with MEand IR. You could potentially spend a bit less or a lot more depending on where you went.

 

This then leaves you with the cost of ATPL exams, about $180 each time you sit.

 

The cost of a theory course should you choose, between 5k-16k depending on the provider.

 

Theory books, Jepps etc. Probably 2k if you did it in a 12 month period.

 

Then you will most likely have to pay for your first few IR renewals (IPC) 2k or so.

 

I could go on further but I'm starting to feel broke and sad..

 

I personally wouldn't know what I've spent but could guess at maybe 150k if you were to include every penny but that's not really how works as a lot of expenditures are after employment and tax deductible. Also comparable jobs have similar costs in establishing a career and similar ongoing costs.

 

Where the industry is backwards is it's the lower end of th job spectrum, where income is at its lightest where you have to pay for the most of your recurring expenses. The further up the chain, the more the boss covers.

 

No one pays for an ATPL, you get a CPL and obtain the requirements throughout your employment and most will have to change employers to obtain all the requirements. Also there is a flight test requirement in a multi crew multi turbine aircraft (sim) since part 61 so now you don't get an ATPL until your employer decides to give you one.

 

Off the top of my head requirements are

 

1500tt

 

700PIC

 

100night command

 

75 instrument with only some amount in the sim allowable.

 

I'm sure there's more.

 

 

[poteroo]

could go on further but I'm starting to feel broke and sad..

An unfortunately frequent comment! FWIW - unless you are very young, and have the money or loans to go all the way @ full speed - then you'll have to graft your way to higher quals. There are ways to minimise costs,(PM me) - but the best is to take your time, study hard, and PAYG. Do a tertiary qual, or trade, on your way because you may/will need a fallback position during your career. Good luck.

 

 

[Bennyboy320]

Honestly try the military option, if that's not possible get a trade & fly for fun on weekends, it's sad but true, the profession has been destroyed by the bean counters.

 

 

[facthunter]

I estimated that I spent the cost of half a house to get a CPL plus enough experience to get a good aviation job. this was despite getting a commonwealth flying scholarship at about 130 hours to go to Com plus Instructor rating. The scholarship only covered part of the cost and you had to agree to apply for a job in aviation at completion. Airlines paid for conversions and sims etc All of that over 25 years was well over I million dollars. My Army camps went into the flying. ( I got good pay there) and you spent every spare dollar you had. I don't think the airline job is anything like it was in the times I did it. It was much more dangerous. Piston engines are very unreliable, anti icing was a joke and you couldn't get above the weather, but it was terrific flying if you could live a life around constant roster changes. The pay was terrible until the late 60's. Nev

 

 

[aplund]

Honestly try the military option, if that's not possible get a trade & fly for fun on weekends, it's sad but true, the profession has been destroyed by the bean counters.

The other option that I can see is to train overseas then try and convert to an Australian license. But is this really the future for ATPL holders in Australia? It seems that the route via GA in Australia, the path cultivated by CASA, is the path of least possibility. I see all these posters up about increasing demand for RPT pilots and I cannot help but think that Australian trained pilots will not be filling those jobs (if the predictions are close to accurate).

 

 

[facthunter]

Australia had a proud record of flying achievements ONCE. It could hold it's head high in the quality of the training. Pity we have come to the situation we now have. Just as well we are the "clever " country. Nev

 

 

[mnewbery]

I tried very hard to get my employer to author a statement to the effect that while they weren't paying me to do flying training they would be offering me a better paying job once I finished.

 

This was to assist with claiming flying training and ALL subscriptions, memberships, medical exams and ASICs as tax deductions.

 

The employer agreed but at Tax time the letter wasn't forthcoming and I had already spent the money. Someone higher up decided it wasn't worth their time and what was the point if I had spent the money already anyway.

 

I treated that act of bastardry with exactly the response it deserved.

 

 

[ben87r]

I still think it's a good career but you have to want it. It took me 4 years before I cracked a good (paid above the poverty line) gig, and ild say I've had a decent run, can take lots longer but I've taken a few gambles that have paid off well.

 

I don't see the cost changing any time soon, to be honest I see it getting worse, rapidly.

 

It's a pretty good time to be an Oz pilot at the moment. Pretty much everyone from my period of charter are now sitting in the seat they wanted, if they stuck it out. The guys I knew that went the FIR route haven't seen any progression but they haven't had the opportunity to do any multi/turn/night/IFR etc so can't move on, but they got to spend their time on there east coast so each to their own.