Viking 130hp Honda Engine.

[Kyle Communications]

No pricing yet but cheaper than Rotax for sure...and I think its more goose

 

 

[bexrbetter]

100hp up to 130hp or even higher I think ..... 6000rpm

I've read somewhere $14,000 Euros. Seems excessive to me.

 

I'm just waiting for a Mate of mine's engine still before I make a decision with what I will do, we should all know soon about that one I hope.

 

I am quite keen on the Toyota 1ZZ 1800cc long engines I can buy here, competitive with the Suzuki 1.3 and Honda 1.5, but less stressed at that size. And it's used all around the World in huge numbers, Corolla 1.8 for Australia, and even Lotus used it.

 

 

[Litespeed]

More Guzzi the better,

 

I have loved many and my Mk3 le mans modded to be usable and comfortable was a beast that could not be killed. The engine was over 200,000k and the problem- bloody rear main seal leaking onto the big dry clutch plates. Mind you I did have a dyna sealed electronic ignition and as new Delorto pumpers- reliable was a understatement. Brought up to BMW standard for electrics , carbs etc and they are fantastic.

 

I remember the absolutely massive main rear bearing for the crank been a huge machining in the back of the crankcase- the case was one piece so you had a big tunnel for the crank to come through. This bearing at 200,000 hard kms looked like new- bellissimo

 

 

[bexrbetter]

More Guzzi the better,I have loved many and my Mk3 le mans

Ridden a number of them, very lovable.

 

Raced MX against Don Newell for years, his son Tommy Newell is a friend and Paul Beeby is a Mate - quite a few years of selling Guzzi between the 3 of them, and I used to mid week ride with another Mate who had one. And yes, the rear main seal has been a problem for them.

 

I just read the guy who designed the Moto Morini engines did the ICP engine, the Moto Morini's high points were their engines that punched well above weight. Ridden a couple of Morinis, delightful.

 

 

[Downunder]

I've got a feeling a few manufacturers get "Rotax fever" when they think they're on a winner with an engine, before they get the runs on the board.

 

Buyers look at the price difference, decide it's not worth the risk, and then buy the Rotax......

 

 

[Litespeed]

Certainly some companies can put marketing above engineering and have been guilty of failing to look properly before leaping.

 

And some have been down right piss poor with customers and reliability, others just ravage your hip pocket but we accept it as normal. Then some are actually worth the bucks, but there is the rub which one?

 

If you can get a rebuilt or low hour rotax cheap enough then sure hard to beat until it is many hrs later and the rebuild cost looms. But then you just get another rotax etc....

 

The actual engine part of a rebuild for many a non rotax engine could be only $2000 plus labour and that is a huge difference for do we not seek low cost?

 

That is why we seek alternatives and for the fun, difference, power......

 

 

[bexrbetter]

The actual engine part of a rebuild for many a non rotax engine could be only $2000 plus labour and that is a huge difference for do we not seek low cost?

.

Mate at worst another Honda engine is going to be between 500 ~ 1000 moolas from a wrecker. Parts aren't so cheap, but far cheaper than Rotax and available in every suburb.

 

Downunder's point is valid too, why would you buy "ABC Wonder Engine" when it's about the same price as a Rotax for no advantage.

 

As a nobody coming in, you need to hit this market for $9,999 tops ready to rock, or you're not there, and that's where the Viking should be.

 

$12,000 for a gearbox and mounting kit (sans engine), doesn't fill me with enthusiasm, although you need to view it as a package doing a job.

 

 

[scsirob]

Perhaps The Belgian D-Motor is a reasonable option for those who want all the modern gizmo's (multi-point injection, dual ECU, dual ignition) but still have a 'real' aircraft design. Very light, very simple. Direct drive, flat-head design. Not as cheap as a conversion, but certainly a reasonable alternative for the 912ULS.

 

www.d-motor.eu

 

 

[bexrbetter]

a 'real' aircraft design.

I don't know quite what that claim is supposed to mean, but I'll lay money that the large majority of 'traditional' Flyers say that a 'real' aircraft engine is aircooled, not water cooled.

 

I guess your claim is aimed at the direct drive element, well Rotax are 50,000 + units strong on the 912 now, with a multitude of 2 strokes with gearboxes previously, and gearbox failures are pretty well unheard of.

 

 

[scsirob]

Not really. What I mean with 'real' aircraft engine, is any engine that's designed from the ground up with aviation in mind. Full ignition/injection redundancy, low stress design, low weight, KISS principle. The Lycosaurs fit that bill (weight, hmm...), but others are starting to get there as well. I consider UL-Power (Air-cooled metric Jabiru copy with modern injection/ignition) and D-Motor to be in that category as well, just not as high volume and long track record yet. CAMit could have been there, but oh well..

 

Not entirely sure about the 4-stroke 912 but the 503/582 2-strokes were designed for snow mobiles, not aircraft. The 912 does well but have had their share of gearbox issues. Also, selecting Ducati for their ignition and regulator circuits has shown to be problematic. The core is good. The ancillaries not so much.

 

Converted Honda/Suzuki engines are designed for mass production and therefor pretty reliable and predictable in performance. Good cores. It's very often the reduction drives and other adaptations to make it fit an aircraft, that are the weak spot. Not enough volume and not enough R&D resources to become as reliable as the core engine.

 

Subaru EA-81 boxer engines were originally designed for aircraft but ended up in cars. They were a nice starting point for converting (back) to aircraft, but even there, the reliability of the package was often low due to reduction gear issues. The bigger Subarus are in the sweet spot for many planes from a power perspective, but once again the reduction gears and other adaptations to make it work in a plane have been shakey. Once again, Google "Jan Eggenfellner" for details..

 

 

[M61A1]

Chinese built Suzuki G13 engines. 3 major engine manufacturers here make them still, as well as others.Millions of them here (literal figure), one of the largest produced engines in the world. Your jaw would drop if you saw the piles of them at wrecking yards.

 

Seem to be bulletproof, mostly fitted in taxis and in low geared mini delivery vans or mini tray tops, get the azz thrashed out of them, always overloaded and China's pretty hilly.

 

This is me ..

 

Suzuki G13 weight warning.

I would be interested to know where the extra weight is, I have personally put a Japanese G13 bare long motor on the scales at a smidge over 42Kg.

 

 

[Litespeed]

Mate at worst another Honda engine is going to be between 500 ~ 1000 moolas from a wrecker. Parts aren't so cheap, but far cheaper than Rotax and available in every suburb..

BEx,

 

I was assuming you go right through the engine and tidy everthing up, nice flow job, coated heads/pistons/exhaust etc and maybe better pistons.

 

Since it is so cheap to do I see it as worthwhile to out the best engine in- might as well have more reliability bit more power and smoothness.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

I would be interested to know where the extra weight is, I have personally put a Japanese G13 bare long motor on the scales at a smidge over 42Kg.

Careful which G13 it is, the hollow crank one, likely, probably not reccomended for aircraft use. I think there's 4kg in the crank alone, still a long way from the 60Kgs I got.

 

Yours may have been a 2 valve as well?

 

For the Chinese one I would suggest thicker castings with a cheaper aluminium could be one reason, add to that a solid counterweighted crank and 4 valve head?

 

I was assuming you go right through the engine and tidy everthing up, nice flow job, coated heads/pistons/exhaust etc and maybe better pistons.

.

I'm not a big Honda fan, but there's no doubt they know how to screw an engine together, so it might be a preference for some, but wouldn't be on my list.

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

Want to talk about Rotax parts

 

This is what you need for the gearbox if you have had a prop strike ...this is for Mabel as I had to put in another mainshaft that was bent

 

I just took delivery of this from Floods.....its called daylight robbery

 

926035 2 of ring half $76.94

 

827992 1 of Thrust washer 33.2/51/1.2 $63.81

 

945820 1 of Retaining ring 52x2 $3.59

 

232241 1 of Roller Bearing NJ205 ECP/C3 $130.04

 

950200 1 of Oil seal 30x52x7 $92.48

 

950470 1 of Oil seal 40x55x7 $62.10

 

927401 2 of Shim 354/43/02 $2.05

 

927402 2 of Shim 354/43/05 $2.05

 

So with GST and freight that little bit just cost $493.58

 

Basically 1 bearing, 1 circlip, 2 oil seals a thrust washer and 2 shims

 

I managed to get large main bearing from another source..its the newer SKF one. They are I believe $135 from Floods I got it for half that price

 

 

[Bernie]

Kyle the trick is to find out Floods source and buy from them.

 

I just bought a engine brake air compressor for a third of the price in AUS and they no doubt buy from who I bought from .

 

The air compressor is for the motorhome ..

 

Bernie .

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

Floods will be getting the parts direct from Rotax..they have to as they are the australian distributor and service agent for warranty as well. So Rotax no doubt massively inflate the price for a start as well. The bearings could be sourced elswhere but the oil seals could be a issue also the thrust washer...either way its way too bloody expensive

 

 

[Peter Anson]

Just a couple of extra thoughts on the Honda and Suzuki auto conversions: Honda and Suzuki both make good engines but in cars they spend most of their lives at fairly low speeds, typically 3 to 4000 RPM, not running continuously at 5000 RPM. I have owned both a Honda Jazz 1500 and Suzuki Baleno 1500, cars fitted with these engines, and while they were fine, neither was impressive for their outright power. You really have to rev them hard to make them go. Neither of the conversions appear to have a backup ignition system or indeed a backup control system for the fuel injection, and it's not unheard of for those things to fail. One of their big claims for the Suzuki conversion is fuel economy at 55% cruise power of only 4.2 gallons per hour (15.9 litres/hr) but on a 1900 nautical mile round trip I did to Queensland last year my Jabiru 3300 averaged 18.8 litres per hour while running at about 2800 RPM. (If you have time to wade through it, see more details at http://www.ansoneng.com/sample-page/sonex-trips/kyneton-to-rockhampton-part-1-930-nautical-miles/) The auto conversions can do that on much cheaper mogas of course, but I can only think of two airfields with mogas pumps, Lethbridge and Goolwa. That's fine if you're not going anywhere. Finally, the price of the 117 HP Suzuki engine is US$12K which would probably be getting up towards A$20K by the time you landed it. I guess all that means I'm skeptical.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Honda and Suzuki both make good engines but in cars they spend most of their lives at fairly low speeds, typically 3 to 4000 RPM, not running continuously at 5000 RPM.

You didn't make a point, but many proffer this as being that they won't accept those conditions.

 

Flat out untrue.

 

People relate to Australian road conditions, try Youtubing some German Autobahn videos to see how cars are used elsewhere. I often sit at 120 to 140 kmh for hours on end in China, and the loads are equivelent to any plane's engine.

 

Subaru EA-81 boxer engines were originally designed for aircraft but ended up in cars.

One of those myths that is completely untrue.

 

 

[JG3]

For any auto engine conversions with fuel injection and thus ECU, consider the problems that can bring. I know of a 701 flyer who had a 4-cylinder BMW conversion. He was very happy with it, until a sensor failed and the ECU shut down the engine, dumping him in a cane field that wrecked the aircraft..... This was not a fault in the engine, just the sensor itself had failed and then the ECU panicked when it lost signal..... It's normal for auto ECUs to either shut down or back to idle when an error signal is detected. A properly designed ECU for aircraft would give an alarm signal then keep the engine going until the pilot can make a landing, then the engine can't be restarted until the fault is properly rectified. ECUs can be reprogrammed/modified to act this way but it's a very specialized operation.....

 

JG

 

 

[Peter Anson]

It's normal for auto ECUs to either shut down or back to idle when an error signal is detected. A properly designed ECU for aircraft would give an alarm signal then keep the engine going until the pilot can make a landing, then the engine can't be restarted until the fault is properly rectified. ECUs can be reprogrammed/modified to act this way but it's a very specialized operation.....

I think the Viking uses a non-standard ECU so they might have addressed this problem.

 

I often sit at 120 to 140 kmh for hours on end in China, and the loads are equivelent to any plane's engine.

Well, 140 kmh in a Honda Jazz is still only 4200 RPM, but you might be right. The engines may run happily for years at 5000 RPM, but we'll really only know when there's a large number flying.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

For any auto engine conversions with fuel injection and thus ECU, consider the problems that can bring. JG

When you look into it you will be advised in short time not to use the standard ECU for that very reason, "limp mode" as it's known,

 

Ross Farnham, a member here, has been offering the solution for 20 years now, and he's a flyer also - Subaru powered Vans RV6.

 

Simple Digital System EM-5

 

 

[bexrbetter]

I think the Viking uses a non-standard ECU so they might have addressed this problem.

That's one thing I don't like about the Viking, and was messy in the early days apparently, a piggyback ECU on the stocker rather than a bespoke one. Not my area, i'll ask Ross mentioned above if he could offer an opinion.

 

Well, 140 kmh in a Honda Jazz is still only 4200 RPM, but you might be right. The engines may run happily for years at 5000 RPM, but we'll really only know when there's a large number flying.

It's got very little to do with rpms.

 

As long as these myths and lores continue then the price of flying won't ever come down much.

 

 

[Guest rv6ejguy]

The Viking 130 is a direct injection engine where the earlier 110 ones were port injected with in-house developed ECUs which were never sorted properly. Thinking that they're probably using the OEM ECU now since DI is very much more complex than port injection as far as the ECU goes. If using the OEM ECU, many of the technical gotchas may still apply when the engine/ ECU is removed from the chassis and connecting sensors it was all designed to run in. Only time will tell. There have been many missteps along the way in developing this package but they may eventually get it all right.

 

 

[waraton]

This from Viking;

 

"We are currently working with a customer who is installing out Turbo on to a Jabiru. This is the first installation, we do not have the cowling designed just yet but we are working with our team to complete this month".

 

I have requested some more info and an update so will post it here when it becomes available. I am still keen to hear from anyone with an Australian experience with this system irrespective of aircraft type. I note from Viking promos that DUC propellers have developed an in flight and a ground adjustable (using one allen key) prop system which Viking say was developed specifically with their engine in mind.

 

 

 

[bexrbetter]

This from Viking;

When you need 170hp rather than 70 ...

 

Try the Zenith forums in the USA, a few are fitted to them.