Company owned Aircraft flights

[MartyG]

Hey guys just a hypothetical question, If as a Private pilot you are employed by a company (But not specificly as a pilot)that is not in the Aviation industry but the Company owns an Aircraft can you as a private pilot fly members of that company on company related trips but still only get paid as a regular employee. I recall reading somewhere it was ok as long as the company is not involved in aviation as its primary role. cheers

 

 

[FlyingVizsla]

As far as I know, you can. There will be complications for the company (insurance, Award etc). My employer hired myself and my plane to fly another engineer into a flood bound town to start assessing the highway to have it open ASAP. The complication was that there was a prohibition on hiring from an employee, but me flying into the town with another employee was OK. If we did it again, they would have hired another plane from someone else, but it was quicker to do it and to plead ignorance and emergent circumstances.

 

Several lads working as jackaroos on properties fly to town to pick up employees or supplies, one bloke talked them into funding his commercial licence. The flying has to be incidental to your main job, otherwise they are employing you under the wrong award. Doing mustering on land that you don't own, requires a commercial, and specific low level training. Insurance (if the company has any) covering transport by non charter light aircraft piloted by a low time private pilot, might make it less than cost effective, unless very remote.

 

I have not looked up the Acts & Regs on this for a while, so I may be wrong. Happy to be corrected.

 

 

[Happyflyer]

Hey guys just a hypothetical question, If as a Private pilot you are employed by a company (But not specificly as a pilot)that is not in the Aviation industry but the Company owns an Aircraft can you as a private pilot fly members of that company on company related trips but still only get paid as a regular employee. I recall reading somewhere it was ok as long as the company is not involved in aviation as its primary role. cheers

Yep, plenty of this happens in Australia. A good way to get some hours. Company does not have to own the aircraft, could be hired. Can only carry company employees or company freight.

 

 

[Head in the clouds]

My early Private and Commercial Ops might help to clarify some of the vagaries of the difference between the two -

 

Once I'd completed my CPL I found I wasn't very good at 'the line pilot thing' so I formed a Company, wrote up a company Operations Manual for General Charter and Mustering operations, applied for and secured an Air Operator's Certificate/Air Service Licence, nominated myself as Chief Pilot and was duly interviewed and then appointed as such by the Regional Director of CASA. All of that then allowed me to conduct Charter and Mustering operations independently, and also hire pilots and lease aircraft as required. Naturally I was then required to maintain mountains of paperwork and be subjected to annual audits and 'surprise visits' as the CASA whim dictated. To be fair CASA were usually extremely courteous and mindful of the pressures of the commercial operation in remote areas (as mine was), and they generally gave reasonable notice and were helpful with providing information and assistance when asked.

 

One of my early experiences was in the southern Kimberley. I'd leased a Robinson R22 and also secured a job employed as a station pilot in the southern Kimberley. The station had its own Robinson R22 and also a Piper SuperCub. I was employed to fly both of them as needed and when I wasn't required I could use my own helicopter in my own mustering business, offering services to other stations.

 

This is where the difference between Private and Commercial Ops comes into play. On this and other forums people have often referred to the Regs where they state that 'mustering is a commercial operation' but that's rather misleading because it must be taken in context with other Regs (and Orders) which come into play when the operation itself is not necessarily a commercial one. It is all very confusing at first and since I had a good relationship with CASA I frequently asked them for determinations of the Regs, mainly because I had two very large competitors watching my every move and the last thing I needed was to provide them with an opportunity to report a misdemeanour. As it happened they did report a number of things but I had always ensured I was in the clear beforehand.

 

So - when I flew on that station using their aircraft for their business it was ALL private operations. It didn't matter whether I was delivering tools and parts to the bores, running the boss or head stockman into town, checking fences, mustering, or dropping smoko to the lads and lasses in the yards. And - I didn't need to have a CPL for any of it, it could all have been done by someone with a PPL. What I did need was the following - Low Level endorse, Mustering endorse, Tailwheel endorse, R22 Type endorse (you need to have an endorsement for each Type of helicopter you fly, not just <5700kg as for fixed wing). Note that I used to muster in the SuperCub as well as in the R22 and I have a CPL for helicopters but only a PPL for fixed wing, I checked all this with CASA to be sure it was within the rules.

 

Sometimes I'd be mustering on neighbouring stations with my own R22 and that would all be commercial ops under my AOC. Also, if I was busy on the home station I'd hire a CPL(H) pilot to use my helicopter mustering on the other stations. That would also be a commercial operation of course, with me as CP and them conducting the actual flying. We'd also do joyflights out of Broome's Cable Beach during the Shinju (Festival of the Pearl), and general Charter work, helifishing, film work and photographic excursions - all commercial ops.

 

Interestingly - occasionally the station helicopter would be down for maintenance and usually I'd fly it to the engineer's facility in Derby but sometimes they'd come to the station instead. That would mean there'd be a couple of days or so when, if they urgently needed to, the station would employ my helicopter as a commercial operation to fill in. However, later CASA pointed out that wasn't necessary. In fact the station could cross-hire (rent) my helicopter from me and have me fly it as part of my station pilot duties, that way it would be a Private operation - there was less paperwork and insurance benefits to doing it that way.

 

That means that if they wish to, someone can quite legitimately own an aircraft, lease, or rent, or cross-hire it to an organisation, and then be employed by that organisation as a pilot to fly it as a Private operation as long as all the flying involves that organisation's own personnel or equipment. If someone was to go down that road it would be wise to have a written cross-hire agreement in place for the insurers so that there was no misunderstanding about who was the aircraft operator in case something went wrong (the 'operator' is the person who owns, leases or rents the aircraft, not the person who is piloting it unless the pilot is also the owner, lessee or rentee).

 

 

[Jaba-who]

Getting back to the point and sticking to the details in the question

 

ie: private pilot

 

Company owned aircraft in a company with no AOC not conducting aerial work of any kind.

 

Paid as an standard employee not as a pilot

 

The basic answer is YES they can.

 

How do I know. - I did it for about 6 years until a few years ago.

 

Basically my company owned the R22, I am employed by my company as a sole employee doing medical work.

 

I flew my aircraft around to various places to conduct work in the medical field. At times I flew another doctor as we were both working at the one place and mostLy I flew myself. I took myself and my briefcase and some hand instruments. I carried no stock, freight or other commercial items.

 

I was not paid in any way for the flying. As far as the practicalities were concerned it was a means of transport.

 

CASA were not interested when we checked it out, the tax office was a little more interested and I had to keep records of flights that were business related and what was Private related. The yearly costs were then proportioned and the company got a tax deduction for the percentage that was company related.

 

 

[MartyG]

Cheers for all the info guys.

 

 

[frank marriott]

employed as a station pilot

IMO that requires a CPL. Employed in another capacity and flying is a different situation.

 

 

[Happyflyer]

IMO that requires a CPL. Employed in another capacity and flying is a different situation.

Nope. Plenty of PPL station pilots in the bush. We've trained a couple of non flying station hands for a PPL and they went back to fly the station plane as station pilot.

 

 

[frank marriott]

Be interesting to see how they get around CAR 2 7(A)

 

c) no payment is made for the services of the operating crew

 

It certainly is common but normally "officially" employed in another capacity immaterial to what actual duties are performed.

 

Anyway no great interest to me really.

 

 

[Happyflyer]

Be interesting to see how they get around CAR 2 7(A)c) no payment is made for the services of the operating crew

It certainly is common but normally "officially" employed in another capacity immaterial to what actual duties are performed.

 

Anyway no great interest to me really.

The reg you quote is but a small part of CASAs convoluted definition of private ops. See paras iii and v below. The companies using private pilots for station work are sometimes very large operations not in the habit of breaking the law.

(d) an aircraft that is flying or operating for the purpose of, or in the course of:

 

(i) the personal transportation of the owner of the aircraft;

 

(ii) aerial spotting where no remuneration is received by the pilot or the owner of the aircraft or by any person or organisation on whose behalf the spotting is conducted;

 

(iii) agricultural operations on land owned and occupied by the owner of the aircraft;

 

(iv) aerial photography where no remuneration is received by the pilot or the owner of the aircraft or by any person or organisation on whose behalf the photography is conducted;

 

(v) the carriage of persons or the carriage of goods without a charge for the carriage being made other than the carriage, for the purposes of trade, of goods being the property of the pilot, the owner or the hirer of the aircraft;

 

(va) the carriage of persons in accordance with subregulation (7A);

 

(vi) the carriage of goods otherwise than for the purposes of trade;

 

(vii) flight training, other than the following:

 

(A) Part 141 flight training (within the meaning of regulation 141.015 of CASR);

 

(B) Part 142 flight training (within the meaning of regulation 142.015 of CASR);

 

© balloon flying training (within the meaning of subregulation 5.01(1)) for the grant of a balloon flight crew licence or rating; or

 

(viii) any other activity of a kind substantially similar to any of those specified in subparagraphs (i) to (vi) (inclusive);

 

shall be taken to be employed in private operations.