Groppotrail - Folding Wings

[Super Cub]

Groppo Trail 2.....Interesting aircraft.

 

Great folding wing design, the trailer required to transport it could be narrower than other folding wing designs.

 

Anyone have one. What's your verdict.

 

Are there any in Australia. An internet search turns up nothing in Aus.

 

Home | The Groppo Trail | All-Metal Folding-Wing Light Aircraft

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

There are none here that I know of

 

 

[rotax618]

G'day Mark, the guys in the hangar next to mine bought a Groppo kit, it should arrive next week. Will let you know when I get a look at it.

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

There is a stack of work to do on the kit. literally only pilot holes drilled in sheets and you have to cut stuff yourself. There is a video on it in the USA a guy is doing it I think he may be the importer. The kit cost for what it was was way too expensive. Could buy a Sav kit a lot cheaper and also a lot easierto put together

 

These are the guys with the heli maint on the west side of your hangar?

 

 

[rotax618]

Yes, they have been to the Groppo factory and are aware of the kit contents. They said that like ICP, Groppo have a four seater aircraft. It is only supplied factory built until they sort out the kit production, and like ICP is too heavy at the moment for LSA. It looks remarkably like Roger's plane.

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

Produzione velivoli Pavia | Ing. Nando Groppo Srl

 

Its called the G70 Nice looking aircraft they say empty weight of 297.5 with parachute....I doubt it very much at the moment most likely 397 kg being a 4 seater. Thats lighter than a savannah.

 

 

[rotax618]

Looks likme it is only a two seater. Nice looking aircraft though.

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

It looked like there was a rear seat in the picture....maybe I should have read it properly. Yes it says a 2 seater...nice looking aircraft and good specs too then if it is what they say

 

 

[hihosland]

'tis a tandem

 

 

[FlyingVizsla]

Had a look at the Trail on the Groppo site. The last photo has "Trial" on the side of the plane - the rest have Trail - where's Dazza when they need him? Or was that one truly a Trial to fly?

 

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

When I was looking at them about 2 years ago it was called the Trial but they changed the name to Trail just after

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

The aircraft in the picture was the original test aircraft

 

 

[Super Cub]

The Wiki write up says it has a folding tailplane. I'm sure that's not correct. Probably not much point considering the width of the main gear.

 

All metal looks good, although only 113Kt VNE and maximum 80Hp.

 

Occasionally you see aircraft that can be converted from Tricycle to tailwheel. Best of both worlds depending what you prefer, and you can always change you mind.

 

I'm surprised there are not more of them in Aus. Although Kyle's comments on the kit build and cost may put a few off.

 

rotax618's neighbour may be the first in Aus.

 

 

[aripilot]

Trial/Trail has folding wings, removable horizontal stabiliser (4 bolts). It is as stable to fly as McDonnell MD 11 and as fun as Corby Starlet. You can even put a Rotax 914 (115 hp) on the nose but Rotax 912 (100 hp) is more popular. You don't cut anything only minor trimming needed. G 70 is side-by-side twoseater. Trail is stronger than our C172, ultimate limits +9/-6 G's. +4/-2 G's is only European ultralight class limitation.

 

 

[Super Cub]

Sounds good aripilot.

 

How long did it take you to build your Trail.

 

How long does it take you to fold / unfold the wings. (I know you may hangar the aircraft, but still interested how easy the folding wing system actually is).

 

Cheers from Aus.

 

 

[aripilot]

Hi Super Cub,

 

still building but 500 hrs is realistic. As a retired ATP it takes probably ~100 hrs more for me. No compromises in details ;-).

 

It takes less than two (2) minutes to fold/unfold the wings and you can even do it while having full tanks.

 

To me Trial/Trail is like a modern Super Cub. Been flying factory planes in Italy twice. Fell in love the first time, had to go back next year after flying season ended in Finland to have fun.

 

My friend who finished his Corby Starlet in 2015 is waiting his kit to arrive in August.

 

In YouTube you can see how easy the wings are to fold/unfold. Just search Nando Groppo Trail.

 

Safe flights,

 

Ari

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

It ends up being pretty expensive

 

In $US and assuming you have the engine and all the other bits like radiator,oil cooler, airbox and exhaust system etc otherwise there is another $3000 for the bits

 

Kit 24,900 Engine mount 1450 Engine cowl 870 Spinner 220 new windshield 1325 wing support braces 520 Vortex generators 165

 

So now we are up to almost 30K US dollars and no instruments or radio yet

 

add freight at least 5K probably more then do the exchange rate and add GST we are up to about $53,500 aussie dollars

 

25K for a rotax then however much to finish and paint

 

I do like the improvements they have done to the version 2 as well.

 

 

[Super Cub]

Ari,

 

Yes had a look at the video. Less than 1.5 minutes to fold or unfold wings.

 

I like the idea of not having to empty the fuel tanks to fold the wings.

 

 

 

Kyle,

 

You have obviously done your homework in regard to costs of building this kit.

 

Thanks for the info. Unfortunately you are correct, getting a bit pricey in Aus for this type of aircraft, which is a shame.

 

Cheers.

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

I was looking at doing something 2 years ago as being the importer. I was dealing with the factory. The reason I didnt go ahead then was it would be too expensive for the target market.

 

 

[Groppo Australia]

Hi all, I am a little late on getting on this site but I will try to answer a few of the questions. We are currently building one in Casino. Firstly it is a fairly big build but not at all a complex one. I think the quoted 500 hours is pretty much on the money if one was to go rip, tear, bust. As an aircraft maintenance facility, we are building ours a little more aligned to the aviation standards we are accustomed to and by doing so has probably dragged things out a little more than needs be.

 

Having said this, the quality of the kit is surprisingly good in that everything is obviously laser cut and as such, everything fits together really well. As it is our first build, we have made a few muff ups but nothing major, just time consuming.

 

The construction manual has very good drawings but a bit light on with instructions, this and the fact it has been translated from Italian makes some of the steps a little confusing but they provide a lot of photographs to assist and a picture speaks 1000 words.

 

As ours is not flying yet, we are unable to give any kind of realistic performance data or comparison to aircraft like the Savannah, however, and I do not want to sound like I am "dissing" the Savannah as I think they are an awesome little plane, it appears to be a more robust design than the Savannah and I personally think it has way nicer lines than the Savannah.

 

With regard to the confusion about whether it is a Trial or a Trail, this was a question we asked the factory, in Italy it is called a Trial and elsewhere it is Trail. Apparently the meaning is the same.

 

As for costing, I would have to check the figures, but I think it has cost us about AUD$35K so far although we did buy a used 912. All that is left is avionics and paint.

 

Any other questions, just drop me a line. Visit www.rvaviation.com.au for contact details.

 

 

[NinjaNate]

Ari,Yes had a look at the video. Less than 1.5 minutes to fold or unfold wings.

 

I like the idea of not having to empty the fuel tanks to fold the wings.

 

Impressive wing folding action and very fast!

One thing I noticed though was that it looked to me like the aileron push rod connection joint was secured by pin bolt and only a wing nut?.. I think I'd definitely want a split pin or some sort of nut retention on such a crucial linkage. Wing nuts have a horrible tendency to vibrate loose!

 

 

[Deskpilot]

In one video it shows the guy removing a locking ring prior to undoing the wing-nut.

 

 

[Groppo Australia]

Impressive wing folding action and very fast!One thing I noticed though was that it looked to me like the aileron push rod connection joint was secured by pin bolt and only a wing nut?.. I think I'd definitely want a split pin or some sort of nut retention on such a crucial linkage. Wing nuts have a horrible tendency to vibrate loose!

That is true, I think in the UK for certification, they had to replace that with a castellated nut and split pin. We plan on drilling the bolt and using an 'R' pin to prevent the wing nut from backing off. I think the reason for the wing nut is to make it possible to fold the wings without the use of any hand tools and I think an 'R' pin will achieve both functions of locking the nut and still making it a job that requires no tools.

 

 

[Head in the clouds]

That is true, I think in the UK for certification, they had to replace that with a castellated nut and split pin. We plan on drilling the bolt and using an 'R' pin to prevent the wing nut from backing off. I think the reason for the wing nut is to make it possible to fold the wings without the use of any hand tools and I think an 'R' pin will achieve both functions of locking the nut and still making it a job that requires no tools.

The wing-folding is certainly nice enough though it results in a very high package for trailering, if that is part of anyone's plan, but the control connections really need a complete re-design.

 

For the next little while owners might be able to get away with connecting and disconnecting primary controls for wing-folding but it won't be long before it requires an L2 at least, or quite probably an L4, to sign it off each time someone unfolds the wings and re-connects the controls, unless that person was the original kit builder ... which doesn't bode well for onselling.

 

It's not that difficult to design controls that auto-disconnect and auto-connect when the wings are folded. There are plenty of designs that do it with various different means employed.

 

 

[Groppo Australia]

The wing-folding is certainly nice enough though it results in a very high package for trailering, if that is part of anyone's plan, but the control connections really need a complete re-design.For the next little while owners might be able to get away with connecting and disconnecting primary controls for wing-folding but it won't be long before it requires an L2 at least, or quite probably an L4, to sign it off each time someone unfolds the wings and re-connects the controls, unless that person was the original kit builder ... which doesn't bode well for onselling.

 

It's not that difficult to design controls that auto-disconnect and auto-connect when the wings are folded. There are plenty of designs that do it with various different means employed.

I think whilst it may be possible getting controls to auto disconnect to facilitate a folding mechanism, getting that certified would be difficult without some kind of non automated fail safe.. I am not an aircraft designer so I am not sure but certainly in the GA world flight controls need at least 2 locking mechanisms which is usually the torque of the nut and a split pin or lock wire. It could be feasible to use a self locking nut (nylon or metalock) but I think most people are most comfortable with something that has no possibility of unwinding under vibration. In GA it is not difficult to get an authorisation to remove dual controls in helicopters provided that no hand tools are required so I don't see why that wouldn't or couldn't apply to flight controls in a recreational aircraft.