Australian involvement in Comac C919

[red750]

Monash University Melbourne has a large involvement in the design and manufacture of China's Comac C919 passenger jet. The Uni is developing new lightweight composites and assisting with design of the narrow body jet which made its maiden flight on May 5.

 

 

Video of first flight here: C-919: first Chinese-built passenger jet completes 'beautiful' maiden flight

 

 

[red750]

Vic Premier Andrews has invited Comac to display the aircraft at Avalon 2019.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Uhh, scary. I unfortunately just know too much about the way Chinese process their thinking, approach to problems, and the supply process to ever step foot in one.

 

You guys have no idea, and the bigger the money involved, the more likely the chances.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

consider yourselves warned, thanks bex

 

 

[Downunder]

I wonder if Monash University hold the patents.......Ha Ha.....only joking...

 

 

[Guest aviast]

Uhh, scary. I unfortunately just know too much about the way Chinese process their thinking, approach to problems, and the supply process to ever step foot in one.

From what I heard they imported all the engineering talent from Europe and the USA so the design should be up to western standards. A lot of components (engines, avionics) from the west too, so it's the manufacture of structures where they need to maintain good quality...

 

 

[bexrbetter]

From what I heard they imported all the engineering talent from Europe and the USA so the design should be up to western standards.

I have no problem with Chinese standards, you'll find the top 10 engineering graduates in just about every Uni in the World are usually Chinese, and have been for a long time.

 

You know your house has been burgled by Chinese when you come home and find your kids homework completed, tax returns done, computer running smoothly with upgrades, and they are still trying to reverse your car out of the driveway.

 

A lot of components (engines, avionics) from the west too, so it's the manufacture of structures where they need to maintain good quality...

Little to do with my fears.

 

My Nephew, Chinese, is one of GE's Head Liason Engineers to the project btw.

 

I may write more in the next few days.

 

 

[Guest aviast]

Little to do with my fears.I may write more in the next few days.

Yes please! I'm intrigued!

 

 

[Guest aviast]

I have no problem with Chinese standards, you'll find the top 10 engineering graduates in just about every Uni in the World are usually Chinese, and have been for a long time.

Oh, BTW I was not intending to denigrate the standards of Chinese engineers - I shouldn't have said "all" the engineering talent. What I meant was that there is more to a successful commercial aircraft design than can be picked up at university - there is a lot of "acquired knowledge" that comes from past experience - and this is what the Chinese have been importing from Europe and the USA. The outcome being that the C-919 should be a more mature design than if China had decided to learn all these lessons the hard way...

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Yes please! I'm intrigued!

Bit busy these days but here's but one on many examples. True story. You'll have to excuse my use of reo units, I am not a builder.

 

An architect designs a 22 story apartment building locally here and one of the specifications is for 8 rods of reo (reinforcement bar) per meter of concrete wall for the developer.

 

Apartment gets built but for whatever reason later it is discovered, accidentally, that only 5 bars of reo per meter were used in the construction. Records are checked, 8 bars of reo are charged out.

 

In a somewhat typical arrangement, the builder has organised with the steel supplier to deliver 8 bars (per meter) with invoice of course and counted/checked by the crane gang, and then later to return 3 bars and share the money difference between them.

 

The building standards only require 5 bars, the building is safe and would otherwise not be known about, and 800,000 rmb is pocketed. Arbitration ensures, 500,000 is recovered.

 

The architect and developer were somewhat affected by the local earthquake here and wanted an extra strong building and was advertised as such, now people are living in a standard safe building, not an extra safe one.

 

The C919 might be a safe plane, but it won't be an extra safe plane.

 

When I first came to China and was visiting and working with various companies, cars were scarce, unlike now, but I noticed there was usually 3 cars parked at the offices, the owner's, sometimes the general manager, but nearly always the purchasing officer had one.

 

How does a purchasing officer on $200 per month (at the time) buy a car? Obvious, kickbacks from suppliers and the cheaper the crap, the larger the kickback. Worst is if there's a bunch of defective or not quite to spec parts, there's a bigger kickback to not return them, much cheaper for the manufacturer.

 

There is no way on this planet that some of that system isn't in effect somewhere down the considerably large outsource parts supply line for the C919, it's just entrenched into this 'every man for himself' culture.

 

And we won't even start on the variable and somewhat bizzare worker's personal standards, besides it's impossible to obtain a level of quality when a person has no experience of that standard of quality or how it's applied in the real world - the difference between a young western guy working on his own dirt bike/car/boat etc as a teenager, and an eastern young guy spending 24 hours per day with his face buried in a study book to get the best Uni grades possible. You will find almost every worker on the C919 has a diploma, and at the same time, dumb as fook in the real world.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Just saying ...

 

CALC orders 50 Boeing 737 Max aircraft

 

 

[IBob]

" - the difference between a young western guy working on his own dirt bike/car/boat etc as a teenager, and an eastern young guy spending 24 hours per day with his face buried in a study book to get the best Uni grades possible. You will find almost every worker on the C919 has a diploma, and at the same time, dumb as fook in the real world."

 

Odd how that works: Richard Feynman found the same thing when lecturing on physics in Brazil.

 

For readers here, his book is the most wonderful read: at first it felt like the voice of a 'mouthy' American, then I realised it is the voice of a (brilliant) man who never lost the child in himself. Here is the extract on Brazil:

 

Richard Feynman on education in Brazil

 

 

[pmccarthy]

Teaching engineering to Asian students back in the eighties was a similar experience.

 

 

[facthunter]

What you are talking of is corruption and it's not isolated to any particular culture. When you reverse engineer anything you are not aware of the criticality or lack of margin in sections of the design. The slightest reduction on spec for a part could cause a "catastrophic" (In engineering concepts) failure. Nev

 

 

[IBob]

What you are talking of is corruption and it's not isolated to any particular culture. When you reverse engineer anything you are not aware of the criticality or lack of margin in sections of the design. The slightest reduction on spec for a part could cause a "catastrophic" (In engineering concepts) failure. Nev

What we also have now are a growing number of 'manufacturers' making items that they clearly have no understanding of and, in some cases, that can not possibly work. And the sheer degree of this now is increasingly bizzare: I began a list (with a new stage of my life) about 15years ago, gave up adding to it, but here is a simple example:

 

If you make this of soft enough steel, the handles just bend when you first try to puncture the can. I know this because the girl at the checkout said 'I'm not supposed to say this, but don't buy that', and proceeded to demonstrate.

 

What boggles my mind is thinking about how many must have been made...and sent all over the world...and thrown in the rubbish...

 

 

[facthunter]

Years ago I knew of people who provided samples and got exact copies of the "WORN" part. Pre worn out. (made that way). Nev

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Just saying ...CALC orders 50 Boeing 737 Max aircraft

In case my point was missed, not even the Chinese are buying them.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Once trump starts ramping up trade wars, Chinese airlines will be forced to use the local product

 

 

[IBob]

In case my point was missed, not even the Chinese are buying them.

We saw that...and your earlier post also explained a great deal for me.

 

 

[Downunder]

If you make this of soft enough steel, the handles just bend when you first try to puncture the can. I know this because the girl at the checkout said 'I'm not supposed to say this, but don't buy that', and proceeded to demonstrate.

What boggles my mind is thinking about how many must have been made...and sent all over the world...and thrown in the rubbish...

That's all well and good, but I bet it was it CHEAP?......

 

This manufacturer probably put the original out of business by making them at a quarter of the price.

 

But sold 4 times as many as poeople kept buying them, looking for one that lasts....

 

Perhaps the "chinese" solution is to make weaker cans.....lol.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

That's all well and good, but I bet it was it CHEAP?......

I just had a small fan belt for my washing machine (530mm) sent to me by post, arriving within 36 hours of ordering through the internet, $1.00.

 

It boggles the mind, production, storage, picking, packaging, handling, motorcycle delivery and put it in the electronic mail cupboard. They send you a text message with a code that you punch into the cupboard and a door pops open. All for a dollar.

 

 

[onetrack]

A good read is "Poorly Made in China" by Paul Midler. Midler is an American who worked in business management in China, for many years, and he knows Chinese manufacturing, and the rorts, kickbacks, and corruption therein - and the "Quality fade" that comes with it. Corruption, kickbacks and rorts are certainly not limited to China - but the Chinese specialise in "Quality fade".

 

"Quality fade" is where a production sample is supplied that meets all the engineering, materials, heat treatment, testing and QC requirements specified by the buyer.

 

Initial orders meet the specifications and things proceed smoothly. Then "mates" come into the picture.

 

Just as the Turkish guides will direct you to their BIL's carpet shop in the Grand Bazaar, when you wanted to look at something else - the Chinese system will find ways to change the specifications of the component in multiple ways.

 

The construction material is changed to a cheaper variety of steel or alloy that no longer meets specs.

 

"Mates" are subcontracted as suppliers, bypassing officially approved and designated subcontractors and suppliers. Kickbacks are involved and the "mate" supplies an inferior product that no longer meets specs.

 

The product can be inserted into a component without being noticed or picked up - or an inspector "mate" can be bribed to look the other way when the item fails testing.

 

Paperwork is falsified, QC is bypassed, specifications are changed illegally, and stamped as authorised by the purchaser.

 

Caterpillar were reamed senseless with no lube, when they moved into Perkins engine manufacturing in China in the late 1990's. Cat went into JV with Tianjin Engine Works to manufacture genuine Caterpillar-built Perkins engines.

 

Caterpillar set everything up - including Cat QC (arguably the best in the machinery manufacturing world) - and the Chinese managed to subvert the entire process within a short space of time.

 

Shares in the JV were transferred to Chinese directors without authority from Cat. Sub-standard, non-Cat-approved suppliers started to supply Perkins engine components.

 

Engine power ratings were revised upwards without reference to Cat. Suddenly, Chinese-produced Perkins engines started to blow up left, right, and centre.

 

Cat moved in and shut the JV operation down and cancelled the deal - and took the Chinese directors of Tianjin to court.

 

Didn't bother the Chinese in the least, they continued to produce "Caterpillar-built" Perkins without authority from Cat! - and continued to use all the Cat trademarks, Cat name brands, Cat logos, and Cat intellectual property, with gay abandon!!

 

It took Cat SEVEN YEARS to shut down the fake Caterpillar-Perkins engine production and to get the directors jailed. Obviously the Chinese directors failed to bribe the judges enough.

 

Caterpillar have restarted Perkins engine production in China - but their new JV partner is IHI Shibaura, a Japanese company. I'll wager the Japanese cross every "T" and dot every "I" - and do their own testing and certification.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

"Quality fade" is where a production sample is supplied that meets all the engineering, materials, heat treatment, testing and QC requirements specified by the buyer.

Initial orders meet the specifications and things proceed smoothly. Then "mates" come into the picture.

Yes, basically true, a bit more complicated by culture, but I will still tell you that it is often as much the Western companies fault who will save hundreds of thousands on producing a cheaper product, but still refuse to put even one of their own competent people on the factory floor.

 

I know an Australian mining company that got a rather large steel structure made and the bird shite welds were disguised with a bead of silastic then painted. Disgusting, but where was the Oz company's guy checking the welding as it was happening?

 

Shares in the JV were transferred to Chinese directors without authority from Cat.

It took Cat SEVEN YEARS to shut down the fake Caterpillar-Perkins engine production

That's not quite the story, it's the American version covering up their own terrible incompetence, but will do for now. We wanted in on that case to get a slice of the 600 million USD that Cat lost, could not get a single reply from Cat at any level.

 

They jailed a couple of the guys, didn't recover a cent. American business culture and law procedure is absolutely useless in China, and they will keep adding to the long list of failures here while the Germans, among others, continue to thrive.

 

 

[ClintonB]

Even simple items like horse floats I see all the time are poorly constructed from light materials and axles that snap clean like made off ice. People keep buying them to save money in initial purchase, only to find them unrepairable or expensive to rectify.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Even simple items like horse floats I see all the time are poorly constructed from light materials and axles that snap clean like made off ice. People keep buying them to save money in initial purchase, only to find them unrepairable or expensive to rectify.

That era is coming to a slow end.

Have a look at the new K Mart manufacturing facility in Java. Very tight control on quality, tight control on raw materials, young designers from around the world with the latest for the youngest, vertically integrated management, and dream conditions and wages in a magnificent work facility for the Indonesians who have proved, like the Thais they they can handle quality repetitive production tasks.

 

This operation has the ability to take its own designs from concept to production with its own dyes and materials within days.

 

At the retail level, for everyday clothing Australians wear, pricing is moving down from a typical $12.00 per garment to about $8.00 per garment.

 

Who would keep old clothes for working on the car at these prices.