Australian involvement in Comac C919

[kaz3g]

Some of you must surely remember when to be given something made in Japan was offensive?

 

Kaz

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Some of you must surely remember when to be given something made in Japan was offensive?

People forget that China is 1/7th of the World's population.

 

They land on the moon and currently have a space program, and they make crappy tin openers and they also make things at every level inbetween rocket science and crappy tin openers.

 

Is it a companies fault that people keep buying their shite time after time and never learn? Where is the onus on the buyer who sees price first and price second?

 

The hilarious part of all this to me is the Chinese themselves don't buy that crap, they are very much the 'Spend a little extra and get something decent that will last for years' type of people.

 

 

[onetrack]

Some of you must surely remember when to be given something made in Japan was offensive?

Yes, but it wasn't due to any lack of ability on the part of the Japanese, it was due to the fact that Japanese were still under embargo until around 1960, as regards supplies of good quality raw materials such as iron ore.

Once the Japanese embargo on raw materials was lifted, the Japanese proved more than capable of producing quality products with an enduring lifespan.

 

 

[onetrack]

The problem we have in Australia is purely greed and profiteering on the part of retail buyers. If I want a quality Australian-made Cyclone shovel, I have to pay for it, and I'm happy to do so.

 

However, retailers will not stock the better quality, or Australian-made goods, because they complain that "no-one will buy it". I think this is either a straight-out lie, or a lot of Australians are dumber than I thought.

 

I'm very careful of the quality of the build in any workshop item I buy. I'm still wary of Chinese lathes, but there are some Chinese lathes that are acceptable.

 

I've yet to find any hand tools that match good ole 'Merican OTC, Snap-On, Proto or Williams tool quality. But I do find a lot of 'Merican "old brand name" companies who are happy to prostitute themselves for pure profit.

 

Typical of that would be the "American Vermont" twist drills I purchased, with the Stars & Stripes proudly emblazoned on the packet, and "USA" in the text - but the fine print on the packet said, (plastic) "drill box Made in the USA, drills Made in China"!!

 

And I've yet to find a Chinese drill bit that approaches American Huot cobalt drill quality.

 

Apparently, one of the problems is, there's a substantial number of American, "old brand name" companies, that are now fully owned by the Chinese!!

 

 

[kaz3g]

Another problem is lack of patent recognition.

 

Oh, and back to the post war Japanese. They were also masters of copying but from this they grew to be masters of design.

 

Kaz

 

 

[facthunter]

Don't know about that, but they got to a stage of reliable quality A lot of of what Honda claim as a first is not. Others pioneered it. They do have quality control. Nev

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Another problem is lack of patent recognition.

Well that's not actually true, and our law firm has made some tidy profits from IP infringements.

 

The law is 100% on your side, the problem is finding them and then nailing them down, if they get even a whiff that someones coming after them, well all you will find is an empty factory the next day. Even if you catch them cold the likely outcome is arbitration and a settlement well short of what Royalties would be, they know it and that's why they do it.

 

Except my Missus is smarter than a woodhouse rat, she usually gets the lot out of them. 2 differences with her is she actually goes by the book rather than relationship, and she does it on a commision basis so the more she recovers, the more she gets. Makes her work harder for it.

 

Another problem is lack of patent recognition.Oh, and back to the post war Japanese. They were also masters of copying but from this they grew to be masters of design.

 

Kaz

China is about halfway now. Believe it or not, the majority of Chinese are disgusted and embarrassed about the Landwind, they have been damaged and the drivers are often ridiculed. There's plenty sitting in the yards not selling ...

 

 

 

[bexrbetter]

A lot of of what Honda claim as a first is not. Others pioneered it.

Not just Honda, although they might win for the most times, many of them claim to be the first and have had their asses kicked a few times in Americans courts over it.

 

 

[IBob]

People forget that China is 1/7th of the World's population.They land on the moon and currently have a space program, and they make crappy tin openers and they also make things at every level inbetween rocket science and crappy tin openers.

 

Is it a companies fault that people keep buying their shite time after time and never learn? Where is the onus on the buyer who sees price first and price second?

 

The hilarious part of all this to me is the Chinese themselves don't buy that crap, they are very much the 'Spend a little extra and get something decent that will last for years' type of people.

You're absolutely right: if we keep buying rubbish, then people will keep selling it, and this isn't specifically a Chinese problem at all.

 

However, there is something else going on: it used to be that items were made by the companies that developed and understood them, so the buyer could have some confidence they would work. Then, in order to capture more of the market, companies began producing a range of qualities, so the buyer had to be more discerning, but the items still mostly worked. And I think older people in the west, like myself, grew up with that idea: that the thing they bought would work, more or less.

 

Now we're having to smarten up, as we're not expecting to be sold things that don't work:

 

About 15years ago, finding myself living alone, I had to buy various household items. That's when I discovered (but didn't buy) the can-opener that won't open a can.

 

When winter came, what I did buy was a 2.3kW oil-filled radiator. They were sold out, all but one, which they told me had been returned by a Chinaman, who said it didn't work, but they'd plugged it in and it did. I bought it: either it would work or it wouldn't, I thought. Went home, plugged it in, sat down to work, noticed after a bit I wasn't getting much warmer, though the radiator was hot. Measured the current: 2.3kW, more or less, but while doing this the thing went off. Then came on. Then went off. Measured cycle time, 5.5 mins on/4.5mins off, so my heater with a 2.3kW element was actually producing a net 1.3kW.

 

And it wasn't hard to see why: every fin of the radiator had a series of vertical slots punched up it, which prevented the heat from conducting to the outer part of each fin: it was making 2.3kW, but unable to dissipate that much heat. So it would overheat, then cycle off on the (inner) safety thermostat (not the outer main thermostat).

 

I took it back, went across the road and bought the Italian version. The picture on the box this came in showed what looked like similar slots in the fins, but when I opened it, they were in fact welds. Except for the fin closest to the controls end, which had the slots.

 

Somewhere out there are hundreds, probably thousands of 2.3kW heaters that are actually only 1.3kW heaters.

 

And only the Chinaman brought his back. It may well be that he was smarter than all the rest of us, but I think it more likely he was the only one, at that point, who had learned not to think anything he bought would actually work.

 

 

[onetrack]

One of the greatest problems I've encountered with Chinese electrical items is the way they make claims for output that cannot be verified, when it comes to actual performance.

 

I guess, in their highly competitive world, claiming that your product will produce more power than other similar products - even when it doesn't, when put to the test - is just one way of gaining a sales edge.

 

 

[pmccarthy]

I attended a conference inAfrica dealing with the problem of Chinese influence there. A big problem is the private Chinese traders who sell cheap rubbish to poor Africans, and will not accept returns when the items don't work. These are generally Chinese family companies, nothing to do with the Chinese government, but their activities make it harder for China to deal at a state level. By the way, China is still highly influential.

 

 

[IBob]

One of the greatest problems I've encountered with Chinese electrical items is the way they make claims for output that cannot be verified, when it comes to actual performance.I guess, in their highly competitive world, claiming that your product will produce more power than other similar products - even when it doesn't, when put to the test - is just one way of gaining a sales edge.

In my experience, that's not unique to China:

I knew someone worked for a top-end commercial audio amp company, and back in the day when the Japanese stuff was among the best, they sometimes used to get Japanese stuff in to fix. And after they'd fixed them, they'd run them through their lab, and the gear never met the claimed specs of output, isolation, distortion etc. Which was kinda funny because they started off believing all those specs, which his how their own gear got so good: they assumed they had to meet those levels of performance, so they did.

 

And later on I saw the same sort of thing with claimed accuracy of electronic fruit grading gear in both NZ and the US.

 

I think the problem is one manufacturer ups the stated spec on their gear, so everyone else feels obliged to follows suit. And it just keeps on ramping up like that, until in some areas it gets completely ridiculous.

 

 

[onetrack]

Monash University Melbourne has a large involvement in the design and manufacture of China's Comac C919 passenger jet. The Uni is developing new lightweight composites and assisting with design of the narrow body jet which made its maiden flight on May 5.

I'm hazarding a WAG at this point, that this "involvement", also means that the Chinese now have complete access to every piece of important research ever done by UM, that is logged on their computer network?

 

[bexrbetter]

in Africa .... China is still highly influential.

China gives billions in aid to Africa, not just money either, they are on the ground developing infrastructure and many other developments for them. Works out very well, the Chinese corrupt and are in awe of the higher level corrupt in Africa, everybody wins.

 

... and damn I came close to a good African deal one time, 100 wind turbines at USD $1 million each with a chunk going to my pocket.

 

. A big problem is the private Chinese traders who ... and will not accept returns when the items don't work.

You have to understand Chinese culture for that, once you have paid your money, that is the conclusion of the deal, you have accepted that what you have paid for is what you have paid for. the deal is concluded at that point, otherwise why would you pay for something if you weren't satisfied? The onus is on you.

 

I still get caught out with it sometimes, I'll get a Tradesman into my house to fix or make something, unthinkingly pay them, and then find a problem. They return, look at it, then quote me to fix it as a new job!

 

When you go to an electrical appliance store here for example, everyone who buys something demands to see it working for quite a period of time before they pay. The more modern stores have Western style warranties now, but that culture is still very much in place.

 

 

[Downunder]

I'm hazarding a WAG at this point, that this "involvement", also means that the Chinese now have complete access to every piece of important research ever done by UM, that is logged on their computer network?

If you want to take copying and stealing technology to a whole new level, look at the chinese j-11 and j-15 fighters......

The russians signing up to "licence" built fighters in china, and not thinking they are going to be diddled in the end is a whole new level of naivety.......

 

 

[IBob]

China gives billions in aid to Africa, not just money either, they are on the ground developing infrastructure and many other developments for them. Works out very well, the Chinese corrupt and are in awe of the higher level corrupt in Africa, everybody wins.... and damn I came close to a good African deal one time, 100 wind turbines at USD $1 million each with a chunk going to my pocket.

 

You have to understand Chinese culture for that, once you have paid your money, that is the conclusion of the deal, you have accepted that what you have paid for is what you have paid for. the deal is concluded at that point, otherwise why would you pay for something if you weren't satisfied? The onus is on you.

 

I still get caught out with it sometimes, I'll get a Tradesman into my house to fix or make something, unthinkingly pay them, and then find a problem. They return, look at it, then quote me to fix it as a new job!

 

When you go to an electrical appliance store here for example, everyone who buys something demands to see it working for quite a period of time before they pay. The more modern stores have Western style warranties now, but that culture is still very much in place.

I find all this fascinating...also very educational...

 

So, going back to achieving and maintaining quality, are you saying that the only way is to have your own skilled QA people constantly on the ground...while also somehow keeping them from joining 'the system'???

 

 

[nomadpete]

Years ago I found a priceless book titled "The Asian Mind Game". It was written by a lady of eastern origin (I believe nobody wants to be called 'Asian'). Her job was consultant to (mostly American) businesses, to guide them through the cultural challenge of doing business with each of the various eastern nations, without bankruptcy or nervous breakdown. If you can stumble across a copy, grab it. Very enlightening. It explains all of the points made in this thread.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

So, going back to achieving and maintaining quality, are you saying that the only way is to have your own skilled QA people constantly on the ground...while also somehow keeping them from joining 'the system'???

Errr (grimace), kind of. It's a great start but they will play games on you, try to hide things from you.

 

The main problem is you are an outsider, they know it and it's very easy to be alienated. Back to culture, workplaces are like large families, they generally expect they will have their job for life and can do no wrong. If you have an issue the Co. Owner might have a chat to the trouble maker who will say something like "I need to feel my elderly parents blah blah" (often true but they play on it) and will immediately be forgiven and nothing will change.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Years ago I found a priceless book titled "The Asian Mind Game". It was written by a lady of eastern origin (I believe nobody wants to be called 'Asian'). .

I'm a bit wary of some of these experts, respectfully. I have read a dozen books that on the surface seem like they know what they are talking about, but then clues start appearing that they are office management types that don't actually know what really happens at ground level.

 

I often see in their writings that they are being played but don't know it, but believe they are getting equal footing in the deals.

 

I just want to mention that their are some terrific, fair dealing companies over here, but man are they in the minority. One problem for Westerners is unscrupulous middlemen, probably 90% of all introductions are done through them.

 

 

[IBob]

I'm a bit wary of some of these experts, respectfully. I have read a dozen books that on the surface seem like they know what they are talking about, but then clues start appearing that they are office management types that don't actually know what really happens at ground level.I often see in their writings that they are being played but don't know it, but believe they are getting equal footing in the deals.

 

I just want to mention that their are some terrific, fair dealing companies over here, but man are they in the minority. One problem for Westerners is unscrupulous middlemen, probably 90% of all introductions are done through them.

Yep: it's an unfortunate fact that people writing management books sell a lot more books by stroking their audience and helping them feel important, in control, and successful. This tends to mean rolling out some fashionable formula, and carefully ignoring any doubt or uncertainty: definitely an empowering read (whatever that means), just a pity it's unlikely to match reality...

 

Meanwhile, out in reality: you're painting a picture of near insurmountable difficulties, Bex.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Yep: it's an unfortunate fact that people writing management books sell a lot more books by stroking their audience and helping them feel important, in control, and successful. This tends to mean rolling out some fashionable formula, and carefully ignoring any doubt or uncertainty: definitely an empowering read (whatever that means), just a pity it's unlikely to match reality...Meanwhile, out in reality: you're painting a picture of near insurmountable difficulties, Bex.

The latest management tool being circulated on Linkedin, and supported by hundreds of people:Photo of a Wolf Pack Explains Wolf Behavior-Fiction!

 

Even after the hoax had been explained, people continued to post about the wonderful example set by the wolves.

 

 

[onetrack]

I deleted my account at LinkedIn because the site was full of scammers, false ID's, and lack of verification - and the company itself, I regard as dishonest.

 

My suspicions are confirmed, that fully 2 years after deleting my LinkedIn account, I am now receiving "contact requests" on a regular basis - and there is little ability to actually contact anyone in LinkedIn to stop the contact requests.

 

LinkedIn is only the scammy business version of the scammy Farcebook, IMO.