Murwillumba aircraft missing.

[Yenn]

They did not say what they found out from witnesses, only made allusions. They then went on to say it was timely to point out about illegal acts. This was done in a letter advising us about the accident. I can only see from what is said in the letter by the CEO that he / she is pointing the finger at the pilot saying there were illegalities.

 

I have no gripe about RAAus pointing out that we should not conduct illegal options, but I consider putting it in that letter is saying the pilot was conducting illegal ops.

 

It would not be the first time that RAAus have pointed the finger and then been proved wrong, because they made the wrong conclusions. They did it to me and I find it objectionable.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

CEO probably has access to classified information

 

 

[alf jessup]

We control our own destiny in our lives

 

Planes don't crash on their own, the human input crashes it through poor airmanship, poor decision making, get home itis, bravado, feeling invincible, pushing the boundaries, poor maintenance and plain habits by some and the list goes on

 

Sometimes pilots become just sheer out of luck, but every accident we read is always caused by the human element in one way or another, as for this one? who knows, hopefully we may get some information on the findings but I very much doubt it

 

 

[turboplanner]

Those of you that follow Pprune will know that every crash gets debated well before and official results. On that forum you get plenty of thread police who jump on you for having an opinion, I think as long as those posting do so in a professional manor with no personal malice then I see now harm in it, besides humans are a curious lot. Imagine if not one soul spoke of this tragedy, all that would say is no one cares, plenty of people care about this accident for many diff reasons. I hope they get to the bottom of it & soon so we can all move fwd & perhaps learn something.

From what I read of your GA background, I would think it would be natural for you to expect the ATSB cause of crash to eventually come out. In RA we have a particular problem in that an investigation follows the State Coroner system I pointed out above. The problem with that is that the Coroner is looking for a cause of death, and that will not necessarily be the same as the cause sequence of a crash. In my case over the years I've found Coroner findings very hard to find, and very few seem to percolate up to the industry or sport they might relate to.

Given these restrictions, we often build new knowledge out of these on-line discussions, even if the subjects get off the direct crash thread.

 

RAA have only recently tried publicising very generalised advice, which doesn't interfere with the Coroner system.

 

If some people misunderstand what RAA are trying to do, and start insinuation that these notices are actual causes, it wouldn't be very long before police or coroners tap RAA on the shoulder and advise them to stop.

 

I wouldn't like to see that because I believe RAA are currently being very helpful in assisting pilot behaviour.

 

 

[turboplanner]

I still classify RAA as GA, it's just that it's mostly self administered like all the other factions of GA.

LOL, I classify all non RPT, Charter, CPL activities as recreational.

 

 

[M61A1]

From the UK CAA's Safety Sense Leaflet on Aerobatics: "A person’s tolerance to ‘g’ tends to increase with exposure and reduce with age." So the cure is to increase your exposure as you get older. I find aerobatics relaxing and still enjoy wringing a Pitts out to its limits.

How regularly and what sort of duration do you need to increase tolerance?

 

 

[M61A1]

The CEO of RAAus has seen fit to mention illegal aerobatics in a letter about this one crash. That to me says that RAAus has decided that the accident was caused by illegal flying. But then they are not saying what the cause was. I consider this very poor comment by the CEO. Either RAAus has decided that it was caused by illegal activity, or it has not so decided, they seem to be wanting to have it both ways. If they want to curb illegal activity they should say so. Not put it in a comment letter about a crash which could have been caused by other than illegality.

This sort of mindset (the RAA one) bothers me....if this had occurred in the same aircraft except GA registered (assuming that the pilot was correctly endorsed), what would they blame it on then?

Assuming that aeros were being conducted at the time, the fact that it is illegal didn't actually cause this event, it's just an aside to it.

 

 

[Happyflyer]

This sort of mindset (the RAA one) bothers me....if this had occurred in the same aircraft except GA registered (assuming that the pilot was correctly endorsed), what would they blame it on then?Assuming that aeros were being conducted at the time, the fact that it is illegal didn't actually cause this event, it's just an aside to it.

No idea what happened in this incident. However, responding to the above post, when reading accident reports where pilot legality has been an issue you often read there is a pattern. One I recall included expired maintenance release, which did not cause the accident, hidden medical condition which did not cause the accident. The cause was a reckless take off rather than choose a better area. It seems if people are willing to break one rule they may be willing to break others.

 

 

[Oscar]

CEO probably has access to classified information

'Classified' information is a national security rating. To use the term in this context means you have no idea of what that term actually means.

 

 

[spacesailor]

A lot of talk about "illegal" aerobatics, but what is the definition of "aerobatic". A six G + or minus aircraft doing turns at four G would seem normal !.

 

But could it be classed classed as illegal aerobatic.

 

spacesailor

 

 

[djpacro]

A lot of talk about "illegal" aerobatics, but what is the definition of "aerobatic".

Definition of Aerobatics

 

 

[kaz3g]

Negative "G" is more likely to be damaging. Your sitting position makes a difference and if you have a pressured G suit to stop the blood draining from your head which makes you black out. Nev

Negative g followed closely by positive g is the more dangerous sequence..at least as I understand the physiology. i.e. a bunt followed by a sharp pull-up.

 

The human body can actually cope with very high g loads for very short times, but is not so accommodating of lesser g over a longer time frame. DJP will be able to comment on this.

 

The Spitfire had two positions for the pilots feet on the rudder bar. The feet were placed in the higher pegs for aerobatic flight to slow the rate at which blood flowed to lower parts of the body thus causing a loss of sight, but not necessarily loc. Tightening the stomach muscles during a high g manoeuvre was another trick as was only having light meals before combat flying (digestion draws blood to the stomach).

 

Kaz

 

 

[winsor68]

They did not say what they found out from witnesses, only made allusions. They then went on to say it was timely to point out about illegal acts. This was done in a letter advising us about the accident. I can only see from what is said in the letter by the CEO that he / she is pointing the finger at the pilot saying there were illegalities.I have no gripe about RAAus pointing out that we should not conduct illegal options, but I consider putting it in that letter is saying the pilot was conducting illegal ops.

It would not be the first time that RAAus have pointed the finger and then been proved wrong, because they made the wrong conclusions. They did it to me and I find it objectionable.

I thought what the CEO was trying to say was pretty damn clear.

 

 

[Phil Perry]

From the UK CAA's Safety Sense Leaflet on Aerobatics: "A person’s tolerance to ‘g’ tends to increase with exposure and reduce with age." So the cure is to increase your exposure as you get older. I find aerobatics relaxing and still enjoy wringing a Pitts out to its limits.

BULLY !. . .seriously though, you'e dead right. I used to find that I felt like a wrung out rag for a week as I started the training, but after that It was much easier to withstand and had no adverse reactions to it. After a long layoff though,. . .you have to get your system used to it again.

 

Lost access to the Pitts and the 150 Aerobat when the group broke up a few years ago. . . .although I do get the odd stint in a 'Relaxing' old Tiger now and then. . .

 

 

[djpacro]

How regularly and what sort of duration do you need to increase tolerance?

This is the source of most published info for civilian aerobatic pilots: http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/751397.pdf - read from page 15.

[Phil Perry]

As an aside to my comment above,. . . I met a couple of Russians who came to our airfield to help my mate Gordon to build the first ever Aeroprakt A22 Foxbat imported into the UK ( G-FBAT ) which is still owned and flown by one of our club members.

 

ONE of these guys said that he had failed the military pilot intake in Russia on medical grounds. He said that, straight of the street, and with no physical preparation, all their candidates for ANY flying training had to be able to withstand 5G for a set period of time.

 

If you couldn't do this and follow various instructions whilst the centrifuge was spinning at this rate, and he could not, to their satisfaction, so he was out. Bye Bye. He managed to get a civilian licence later, but only for private flying, whilst working at the Antonov design Bureau, which had a hand in the original design of the Foxbat light leisure aircraft which has been a great success worldwide. As far as I know the bloke is still there at the Kiev kit factory. . .he was only in his mid to late twenties at the time . . this was mid 1990s btw.

 

Regarding my earlier comment with regard to 'Aeros' in a Tiger Moth,. . .this was the only one of these I had ever sat in, which was fitted with an accellerometer.

 

This instrument was pointed out to me by the owner in his briefing. . . and of course ( Me being me. . .) I replied. ." Why do you need to measure the wind speed when you're up there flying. . ."

 

He turned around and looked at me with that look. . ."Have you just fallen out of a dog's bottom mate. " ( Some folks are just bereft of a bizarre sense of humour. . )

 

Lovely,. . lazy ThreeGEE loops. . . .ahhhh. . . love it. Barrel rolls. . .lovely. . .stalled half way around an early attempt, . . .hanging weightless in the straps, falling. . .falling. . . dust, crap, old fag ends. lost coins and other $hit falling upwards all over my classic Stadium motorcycle goggles. . .and that 'horrible' delay before the weight of the coughing and spluttering, soon to stop completely Gypsy engine lazily pointed the airframe at Mother Earth again. . .allowing our forward velocity to attain the dizzy heights of that Livegiving 56 knots and re-awakening that 'Stick' thingy. . ..

 

Memories are made of stuff like this innit ?

 

Ha !. . .Wolfgang Langweische eat your heart out . . . .

 

 

[Phil Perry]

This is the source of most published info for civilian aerobatic pilots: http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/751397.pdf - read from page 15.

YMMB, is that Moorabbin DJP ?. . .sounds like it ( without checking wiki ) It was not far from there, that Lt.Col. Keith Hatfield ran 'Groupair' flying school at Casey Airfield at Berwick that I received my OFFICIAL introduction to the DH82A, ( VH-TIG )

 

Bearing in mind that I'd been flying in these aircraft since 1956 with our next door neghbour and his Hurricane pilot shareholder in their £40.00 aircraft ( ! ). But of course none of this coud be legally logged as I was under age, but you can't UNLEARN what you have learned. I could sideslip one into a field by the age of 11. . .but I neeeded a very thick seat cushion to see over the side. . .

 

At Groupair, did my type conversion from the C-150 that I'd legally learned upon and later some aeros training from the Great ( well I think so ) David Squirrell. He was an instructor at Casey at that time, as well as being a part time Ag pilot. He taught at Moorabbin too. . . .he came over on the surface like a 'Cocky Farmer' with a brilliant sense of humour.. . .never saw him without a grin on his face ( Hope it wasn't my flying skills that made him giggle )

 

I have wonderful memories of that place and the people there. Shame that it has gone and passed into history. . . .

 

 

[djpacro]

YMMB, is that Moorabbin DJP ?.. . . .

Yes. I knew Keith and David fairly well and kept in contact until they passed away. Aaah the Elsaburgers!

[Bernie Knight]

Oops I'm hi jacking the Thread here but....

 

Phil Perry, off track a bit - hi jacking the Thread ..

 

Phil like your avatar with the Antonov

 

Here's my bi plane - since sold with the Antonov behind it.

 

And similar to your profile my wife doesn't like flying - other than A380 business - also..

 

 

 

[Cosmick]

That's true as I started out with just 2 G's & even that felt odd at first but got used to it, went to 3 G's now max 4 G's, I don't want to go any further anyway, besides most basic aero's are covered with 4 g's

I have enough trouble getting 4G on my phone.

 

 

[peterg]

YMMB, is that Moorabbin DJP ?. . .sounds like it ( without checking wiki ) It was not far from there, that Lt.Col. Keith Hatfield ran 'Groupair' flying school at Casey Airfield at Berwick that I received my OFFICIAL introduction to the DH82A, ( VH-TIG )Bearing in mind that I'd been flying in these aircraft since 1956 with our next door neghbour and his Hurricane pilot shareholder in their £40.00 aircraft ( ! ). But of course none of this coud be legally logged as I was under age, but you can't UNLEARN what you have learned. I could sideslip one into a field by the age of 11. . .but I neeeded a very thick seat cushion to see over the side. . .

 

At Groupair, did my type conversion from the C-150 that I'd legally learned upon and later some aeros training from the Great ( well I think so ) David Squirrell. He was an instructor at Casey at that time, as well as being a part time Ag pilot. He taught at Moorabbin too. . . .he came over on the surface like a 'Cocky Farmer' with a brilliant sense of humour.. . .never saw him without a grin on his face ( Hope it wasn't my flying skills that made him giggle )

 

I have wonderful memories of that place and the people there. Shame that it has gone and passed into history. . . .

Crikey

 

You must be old.

 

I have a few hours in the RHS of a B18 with Dave.

 

 

[Phil Perry]

I would also like to apologise for the serious thread drift here. I guess that often, a Trigger word such as. . 'Aerobatics' can awaken memories. . .

 

 

[pmccarthy]

Trigger is also a Trigger word. Capitalised, it made me think of Roy Rogers. But doesn't everyone?

 

 

[Methusala]

I met a couple of Russians who came to our airfield to help my mate Gordon to build the first ever Aeroprakt A22 Foxbat imported into the UK ( G-FBAT ) which is still owned and flown by one of our club members.

Hey Phil, Years ago (maybe 15-18...dunno) a neat little very open biplane came to demonstrate its stuff at Canberra. It was a MIG powered by a 582. The pilot was employed by MIG. His demo was Great+++ but we never heard any more. Do you know anything about this aircraft? Don

 

 

[Phil Perry]

Yes. I knew Keith and David fairly well and kept in contact until they passed away. Aaah the Elsaburgers!

'ELSABURGERS' !! Oh Yesss. . .That Lady unwittingly put a few inches on my midriff. . .used to make up the beef mince combo herself, I tried to copy it at home in Vermont, but couldn't even get close to that recipe !