flyerme Posted May 30, 2017 Posted May 30, 2017 Sad news, RIPNo Cookies | The Advertiser Yeh just heard about it. Not good. Condolences to friends and family.
Happyflyer Posted May 30, 2017 Posted May 30, 2017 News reporting it was twin turboprop Cessna Conquest. On a training flight so possibly all three were company pilots. Very sad. No Cookies | The Advertiser
alf jessup Posted May 30, 2017 Posted May 30, 2017 Condolences to all families and friends who knew the aviators 1
VoodooForce Posted May 30, 2017 Posted May 30, 2017 Rossair grounds all flights, confirms chief pilot among three dead in Riverland crash and CASA representative Stephen Guerin
turboplanner Posted May 30, 2017 Posted May 30, 2017 Sadly the picture is starting to form:-( Hope the families can get some sort of closure quickly. Assymetric test? 1
Sugarwood Posted May 31, 2017 Posted May 31, 2017 We live 3ks from crash site. Media Rotary wing vultures in abundance today. Massive loss indeed of 3 highly trained men and I would suggest with CASA personnel on-board that major risk averse operations were likely in place. "Training flight" might be better termed "Operational Check flight" given Paul was highly experienced with Rossair and about to retire. Containment of wreckage at site in photo suggests low speed arrival in my completely inexpert opinion. ATSB will in time provide the appropriate professional determination of the chain of causation. 1 1
turboplanner Posted May 31, 2017 Posted May 31, 2017 Here is preliminary ATSB information on the take off: Investigation: AO-2017-057 - Collision with terrain involving Cessna 441, VH-XMJ near Renmark Airport, South Australia on 30 May 2017 This is an ATSB report of another training crash. Note the comment "That introduced a simultaneous failure of the left engine and propellor autofeathering system" I'm not suggesting that occurred in this case, but the last example where this subject was discussed was the Essendon Crash, and over the years quite a few fatalities around the world have occurred when an assymetric situation was induced in training/check flights. Investigation: AO-2010-019 - Loss of control - Embraer S.A. EMB-120ER Brasilia, VH-ANB, Darwin Airport, Northern Territory, 22 March 2010 1
VoodooForce Posted June 1, 2017 Posted June 1, 2017 plane had landed from Adelaide => Renmark and had only been airborne for < 90 s
laserfly Posted June 1, 2017 Posted June 1, 2017 Can't all asymmetric training be undertaken in simulators ?.
turboplanner Posted June 1, 2017 Posted June 1, 2017 Can't all asymmetric training be undertaken in simulators ?. That seems to be part of the pilot debate in recent years, but there's a cost factor. There are a few discussions on props which feather OK with an engine failure, but don't feather under certain conditions when the throttle it closed, or closed incorrectly.
ben87r Posted June 1, 2017 Posted June 1, 2017 No sim for the 441 in Oz. If there was the RPT operators would have to use it. Can't all asymmetric training be undertaken in simulators ?. 1 1
Bob Scrymgour Posted June 4, 2017 Posted June 4, 2017 Condolances to all families IT WAS only 5 weeks ago that Paul Daw spoke to the Sport Aircraft Club of S A about his very interesting career especially with the trimotor crash at Parafield due to undercariage failure. WE in S. A. will always remeber his dedication & contribution to flying .. 3
up-into-the-air Posted June 4, 2017 Posted June 4, 2017 These are sad events and condolences to the families. As mentioned, there are what appear similar occurrences with an EFATO [Engine Failure After Takeoff] over the years. The Brasillia #atsb report called for these ops to be done in a simulator. The PA30 far example, had a recent occurrence at Camden at airport elevation, yet the AFM calls for a hard deck of 3500FT AGL for these types of OPS. Also there have been some reported instances with the Metro where #casa FOI's called for stick shakers to be disengaged for the pilot to demonstrate stall recovery. This occurred in the Sydney basin and the aircraft only just managed to be recovered. In Holland, a similar exercise was at 10,000FT. The aircraft could not be recovered and span into the sea with a forward speed of around 30KTS. Flying at the insistence and at against the AFM specifications is usually fatal. . Just saying 1 1
craigL Posted June 4, 2017 Posted June 4, 2017 Very sad and a great loss. Wouldn't the emergency beacon have to be turned on before impact? If so, with such experienced pilots this suggests a technical failure or unrecoverable state as suggested above. I know it can be bad to speculate like this, but we all have skin in the game and ATSB can take so long to reach and release their conclusions. Understandable why, but meanwhile ...
SDQDI Posted June 4, 2017 Posted June 4, 2017 Wouldn't the emergency beacon have to be turned on before impact? If so, with such experienced pilots this suggests a technical failure or unrecoverable state as suggested above. I don't know anything about the plane they were flying but I would assume that it was an automatically activated beacon. 1
ave8rr Posted July 5, 2017 Posted July 5, 2017 Preliminary Report. Investigation: AO-2017-057 - Collision with terrain involving Cessna 441, VH-XMJ near Renmark Airport, South Australia on 30 May 2017 Pity RAAus cannot publish Preliminary Reports with known info such as above. Just the known facts. Good to see OZ Runways info has been used in absence of CVR/FDR info.
Thruster88 Posted April 30, 2020 Posted April 30, 2020 As it turns out Turbo, post #11 and every other thinking pilot could guess the most likely cause. The question is will any change be forthcoming? https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2017/aair/ao-2017-057/
facthunter Posted April 30, 2020 Posted April 30, 2020 The big issue with turboprops is they can have drag equal to about 8 times the thrust when the engine malfunctions, because of the large reduction ratio of the drive gears. Acts in reverse when the thrust stops. That's what they impress upon you on the courses when you are getting the endorsements and why they have auto feather which works quickly and it's actions should be fully understood by all who fly them., WE used to do this stuff at tree top height. MADNESS.. Nev 1
Flightrite Posted April 30, 2020 Posted April 30, 2020 (edited) That's why I like free turbines? I recall the Metro of Tamair's going in at Tamworth in the 90's, similar deal and it was at night, very risky! Pilot error on so many counts! Edited April 30, 2020 by Flightrite
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