Whats up with the SAAA?

[KRviator]

I dunno if it is just me, or the issues are systemic nationwide, but trying to simply change the registration of my RV-9 from RAAus to VH is proving nigh-on impossible. And I've had a gutful..

 

It is not that RAAus were slow to process the request for deregistration. They weren't at all.

 

It is not that I can't get the letters on the side. I did that - though that was after arguing with CASA CLARC staff over the meaning of the word "Foreign" and being told I had lied to them on the registration application.

 

Part of it is that CASA want an annual inspection performed and a MR raised for an aircraft that does not have a valid CoA, in order to issue the Experimental CoA. Which, given I haven't completed the SAAA MPC (there is only one planned in NSW this year) I can't sign off myself yet, even though I am the builder... So I in turn approach the SAAA about having an AP perform the CoA process as an AP can issue the CoA without a valid MR in force.

 

There are 2 AP's in NSW. One appears to be away as he hasn't replied to an email or followup voicemail I've left, the other is too far south to travel to Sydney - which is fair enough and completely understandable. So I call HQ to ask if there are any other AP's that aren't on the website list (which was last updated January 2016), without a satisfactory answer. Apparently there are others that are going/gone through the AP school, but no one can say if they have qualified yet. HHmmm...Okay....

 

So I email SAAA Tech explaining the situation and asking, basically, "What can I do?". No answer. I emailed HQ last month asking about upcoming MPC dates. No answer. I call last week asking about MPC dates. "We should have an email out later in the week/early next week". Nothing. I call this week chasing this email. Still nothing.

 

For an aircraft that has already passed a pre-flight final inspection by a CASA Delegate, successfully passed its' flight test phase with the finalisation form sent to RAAus and flown another 30 or so hours beyond that, the process to get it airborne under the SAAA is worse than trying to convince RAAus that an RV could be entered on their register. And I can't understand why?

 

Why is there only one AP for the entire northern half of NSW? Why does an AP based in NSW have members calling from Adelaide enquiring as to his availability to perform an inspection on their planes? Why cannot the SAAA respond to members enquiries, even if it is a "we'll look into it and get back to you by <date>".

 

I can't imagine I am the first amateur-builder to go from RAAus to VH-, so what gives? What am I doing wrong?!?

 

 

[440032]

Sorry to hear all that.

 

1. You must have an Experimental Certificate before a Maintenance Release can be issued (ie, signed and dated)

 

2. The MPC certificate to enable you to issue your own M/R is a CASA requirement. I'm not up with next courses dates.

 

3. A friendly LAME can personally issue a M/R him/herself, (outside of a registered workshop if need be) and only after annual inspection is completed.

 

4. Yes, more AP's are coming, including one in Sydney. After applying to CASA, then the waiting begins. ETA? NFI.

 

5. Search CASA website for a private AP perhaps, in the interim? There's one in Cowra, but that's not super close by. I hear Mr Dines is not so well at present and may be non-op.

 

 

[Yenn]

One of the problems with the lack of an AP could be that all AP's are volountary jobs.

 

If all you need is to raise an MR you could try to find someone who has built an RV9 and can do the maintenance. Or as has been said here, get a LAME to do it. I cannot see that an annual inspection is necessary. It only needs the LAME to be sure that the plane is airworthy.

 

 

[440032]

All SAAA APs are a voluntary role, for members. But of course, if they are not near, and can't get there, they can't help.

 

Commercial APs are at commercial rates and also may not be willing to travel far.

 

A LAME can't issue a new Maintenance Release (on anything) without doing an annual inspection.

 

Someone else with an RV9 cannot issue a new M/R and do maintenance for someone elses RV9.

 

 

[KRviator]

The problem is a LAME cannot raise an MR without a CoA being in force. And the CASA AWI won't issue a CoA without a valid MR (which is a circular argument), whereas an AP can issue a CoA sans MR.

 

I can issue my own MR once I've done the MPC, but there's only one planned in NSW this year at this point in time, at OzKosh - and I may very well be away for work then.

 

I didn't realise there might be other CASA AP's for Experimental CoA's besides those listed on the SAAA website, so I have an email into a gentleman from Bankstown with the CASR 21.195A delegation, hopefully he might understand the difficulties I face and we can work through them. Thanks 440032 for that suggestion! There's a few options for these AP's anyway, including a couple at LSA manufacturers who might be understanding of my predicament too...

 

I was led to believe it would be a relatively simple "desktop" audit on CASA's part, as the aircraft was already inspected by one of their delegates, the RAAus L4, and they would issue the CoA once they'd verified the dataplate and other ergulatory requirements were met. At this point in time, it would have been simpler to keep it with RAAus!

 

 

[440032]

The 21.195A list of delegates is available on the CASA website. Let me know if you can't find it. I'd be a bit surprised if there wasn't one (commercial) nearby. Stephen Dines did a lot, but I heard he was in poor health of late sadly.

 

LSA manufacturers can't help you, other than with AP suggestions.

 

What you are being told is not quite the full story. For a normal CofA, an annual will have been done, the LAME will have prepared a new Maintenance Release for issue (not signed or dated) and that is what theCASA AWI will want to see. He issues a CofA, the LAME signs and dates the M/R, you kick the tyres, light the fires. Similar for experimental, though AP's aren't quite so fussed about seeing a ready-to-go M/R on the table. You can't fly without one, but that doesn't stop them issuing an EXP Cert. If you have it ready to go (sign etc) all the betterer.

 

 

[Litespeed]

Maybe try Ole Hartmann at AAK Taree.

 

He should be able to help or point you to someone who can.

 

 

[440032]

Let's just go straight to the source to save time:

 

Airworthiness delegates search | Civil Aviation Safety Authority

 

enter desired STATE

 

Power = 21.195A

 

APPLY

 

Two of the APs listed are the SAAA reps.

 

Any AP can cross the border to do the work, if they are willing and able and available. Like everything, it comes at a cost though.

 

 

[KRviator]

So after emailing one of the gentleman on the list I got a quick & polite reply that he has unfortunately not held his AP certification for 21.195 since 2015, CASA have not updated their database. So, with my local AP indisposed, Jim W too far and Steve Dines crook, it really only leaves Howard Hughes at Lightwing in Ballina, Phil Goard at Brumby Aircraft in Cowra and a final gent whose location I am not sure but probably Sydney with the Airlines if you go by his LinkdIn profile.

 

So, I have emailed Phil and hopefully he may be able to assist, even if I have to offer to take him to lunch at Patonga after the inspection. Failing that, it may very well be back to RAAus until I can track down an AP.

 

 

[SDQDI]

So after emailing one of the gentleman on the list I got a quick & polite reply that he has unfortunately not held his AP certification for 21.195 since 2015, CASA have not updated their database. So, with my local AP indisposed, Jim W too far and Steve Dines crook, it really only leaves Howard Hughes at Lightwing in Ballina, Phil Goard at Brumby Aircraft in Cowra and a final gent whose location I am not sure but probably Sydney with the Airlines if you go by his LinkdIn profile.So, I have emailed Phil and hopefully he may be able to assist, even if I have to offer to take him to lunch at Patonga after the inspection. Failing that, it may very well be back to RAAus until I can track down an AP.

I believe Howie is also unavailable

HOWARD HUGHES - RIP

 

 

[Downunder]

I thought it was all sorted with the RAA and you were happily flying?

 

 

[KRviator]

I thought it was all sorted with the RAA and you were happily flying?

It was, and I am. Once I convinced RAAus that an RV-9, even registered as a 2 seater, was legal per CAO95.55, there were no further issues. Indeed, had I not been personally grounded my RV would still have numbers on the side...But I got cleaned up by a kid on a motorbike in Feb and have spent the last several months off work with a broken arm & leg and figured I might as well use the downtime to swap my RPC to the RPL and the registration from RAAus to CASA, which was always the ultimate goal, to remove the 600Kg MTOW restriction. Supposedly, as it had already flown with RAAus, it would've been a "desktop audit" for CASA to issue the CoA. But it is proving to be bigger than Ben Hur to get that elusive bit of paper! I can handle not being able to sign the MR until I have the MPC under my belt, but what I don't like is SAAA's inability to answer relatively simple questions, like "Are those new AP's you've been schooling qualified & available?", "When & where are your MPC courses?" (they sent out an email 21/2 with the following details for the courses: "WA 1-2 April & location TBA, NSW over OzKosh weekend, but no location. Queensland 2-3/12 but again, no location, Victoria no date or location). Less than a month later, they had cancelled the WA course. As a builder, as a SAAA member this lack of planning is unacceptable. If I need to take time off work, arrange inter/intrastate travel and accommodation I expect the details to be set in stone as early as possible. As things stand, there is still no location published for the course over the OzKosh weekend.That a NSW AP has builders calling him from Adelaide regarding CoA's, that emails to HQ are seemingly ignored and that questions like those above and others that have a seemingly simple answer are either ignored or unanswered annoys me and I cannot believe that I am the only one with these kinds of issues, which suggests something needs to be done.

 

 

[ave8rr]

The RAAus Technical Mgr Darren Barnfield is issuing EXperimental C of A according to completions photos in the SAAA magazine. Maybe worth a call although I think he lives in MEL.

 

Cheers Mike

 

 

[KRviator]

The RAAus Technical Mgr Darren Barnfield is issuing EXperimental C of A according to completions photos in the SAAA magazine. Maybe worth a call although I think he lives in MEL.Cheers Mike

Thanks Mike, I left a message on his phone a few days ago too (30/5), but he hasn't got back to me yet. I figured if anyone could understand my predicament it'd be Darren. I am starting to feel like a leper!

 

[ave8rr]

Thanks Mike, I left a message on his phone a few days ago too (30/5), but he hasn't got back to me yet. I figured if anyone could understand my predicament it'd be Darren. I am starting to feel like a leper!

My RV9A was built in Canada. Was imported in 2008 and no problems getting her on the Aus Register.

Steve Dines did the paperwork but he was in good health then.

 

Cheers Mike

 

 

[440032]

Can I suggest KR, that you call your state National Councillor (listed in Airsport), or the Pres. They need to know your story. You are the best person to tell it.

 

 

[facthunter]

This might be a dumb question but don't SAAA require some progress inspections during the build? Nev

 

 

[KRviator]

Can I suggest KR, that you call your state National Councillor (listed in Airsport), or the Pres. They need to know your story. You are the best person to tell it.

I might just do that. I unfortunately had to do a similar thing when RAAus refused to accept my -9 on their register, and really didn't want to cause a ruckus with the SAAA as well, but it could be the national council don't realise some of the problems us mere mortals face.

 

This might be a dumb question but don't SAAA require some progress inspections during the build? Nev

They don't require them, but highly recommend them. I had a SAAA TC inspect my -9 twice during the build, and the RAAus L4 and the local CFI inspect it at Cessnock prior to it being signed off for flight.And just to prove it is airworthy and does actually fly!

 

 

 

[flyvulcan]

This might be a dumb question but don't SAAA require some progress inspections during the build? Nev

No progress inspections are required during the build. The CofA inspection by the AP may be the first and potentially only one that is completed on the aircraft for the issue of the CofA.

 

The SAAA has a program that offers supervision during the build process. Three inspections during the course of the build by a Technical Councillor qualifies the aircraft for discounted insurance through the SAAA's recommended insurance firm.

 

Dave

 

 

[Yenn]

Progress inspections may not be required, but for the AP to sign off, he has to be sure that the plane was built correctly. If he can't see the internals he may just say No. That his his prerogative and it is his name that goes on the paperwork.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Yenn do you know of someone who's plane was knocked back?

 

 

[KRviator]

Progress inspections may not be required, but for the AP to sign off, he has to be sure that the plane was built correctly. If he can't see the internals he may just say No. That his his prerogative and it is his name that goes on the paperwork.

That's not correct. Short of a procedural failing (rego marks incorrect, placards wrong, paperwork not in order) the AP MUST issue the CoA. In theory, you could bolt a rocket to a barn door and have an AP sign it off, but where they get you, if they can see the aircraft is so unsafe as to present a hazard to everyone else, is the assignment of your test area. The AP would be quite within his rights to assign you a test area 100nm west of Walgett between 1200 and 1205 on the 4th Sunday of every month until your 40 hour Phase I period is flown off. Of course, if you listen to the AP, and fix things to their satisfaction, your test area might then become exactly what you ask for....The builder is the one who signs to say the aircraft is airworthy. Nobody else...

[Ata]

I dunno if it is just me, or the issues are systemic nationwide, but trying to simply change the registration of my RV-9 from RAAus to VH is proving nigh-on impossible. And I've had a gutful.. It is not that RAAus were slow to process the request for deregistration. They weren't at all.

 

It is not that I can't get the letters on the side. I did that - though that was after arguing with CASA CLARC staff over the meaning of the word "Foreign" and being told I had lied to them on the registration application.

 

Part of it is that CASA want an annual inspection performed and a MR raised for an aircraft that does not have a valid CoA, in order to issue the Experimental CoA. Which, given I haven't completed the SAAA MPC (there is only one planned in NSW this year) I can't sign off myself yet, even though I am the builder... So I in turn approach the SAAA about having an AP perform the CoA process as an AP can issue the CoA without a valid MR in force.

 

There are 2 AP's in NSW. One appears to be away as he hasn't replied to an email or followup voicemail I've left, the other is too far south to travel to Sydney - which is fair enough and completely understandable. So I call HQ to ask if there are any other AP's that aren't on the website list (which was last updated January 2016), without a satisfactory answer. Apparently there are others that are going/gone through the AP school, but no one can say if they have qualified yet. HHmmm...Okay....

 

So I email SAAA Tech explaining the situation and asking, basically, "What can I do?". No answer. I emailed HQ last month asking about upcoming MPC dates. No answer. I call last week asking about MPC dates. "We should have an email out later in the week/early next week". Nothing. I call this week chasing this email. Still nothing.

 

For an aircraft that has already passed a pre-flight final inspection by a CASA Delegate, successfully passed its' flight test phase with the finalisation form sent to RAAus and flown another 30 or so hours beyond that, the process to get it airborne under the SAAA is worse than trying to convince RAAus that an RV could be entered on their register. And I can't understand why?

 

Why is there only one AP for the entire northern half of NSW? Why does an AP based in NSW have members calling from Adelaide enquiring as to his availability to perform an inspection on their planes? Why cannot the SAAA respond to members enquiries, even if it is a "we'll look into it and get back to you by <date>".

 

I can't imagine I am the first amateur-builder to go from RAAus to VH-, so what gives? What am I doing wrong?!?

Give me a call when free. Daz

 

 

[manna]

Hi KRviator

 

There is a CASA AP based on the Central Coast of NSW, his name is David Tennant and is contactable through Central Coast Aero Club, he is able to sign of a Experimental CoA. You could email him, his address is dltenno"at"hotmail.com. Hope this helps

 

 

[KRviator]

Hi KRviatorThere is a CASA AP based on the Central Coast of NSW, his name is David Tennant and is contactable through Central Coast Aero Club, he is able to sign of a Experimental CoA. You could email him, his address is dltenno"at"hotmail.com. Hope this helps

Thanks mate, he is the local AP who appears to be away, that I was referring to in my original post. I emailed him on the 25th, then followed up with a phone call to his mobile a few days later on the 29th that went to voicemail and I left a message, but haven't heard back yet. Personally, I feel anything more than two attempts to contact someone with an email &/or VM is badgering them when they may not be in a position to answer, so have left it at that for now while I try to find another available delegate.