CESSNA down at Ballina /fatal

[bull]

Pilot dead in NSW north coast air crash loss of control in cloud/fog by the sound of the witness reports, rip old mate..........................

[Aldo]

Same shit, same result, different participant

 

When will we learn???

 

 

[turboplanner]

Same ****, same result, different participantWhen will we learn???

It is the most repeated fatal, but there is precious little information supplied by CASA to learn from other than broad-based statements. I started a thread on this site hoping people could come forward with better ways to identify Met conditions which might trap a pilot, but very little information has come forward.

 

We can certainly learn not to fly with less than the legal distance from cloud, but what happens when the weather closes in behind and around you?

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

... what happens when the weather closes in behind and around you?

...get down fast! We should always have a landing spot in sight. If not, pull the red handle.

 

 

[Pearo]

It is the most repeated fatal, but there is precious little information supplied by CASA to learn from other than broad-based statements. I started a thread on this site hoping people could come forward with better ways to identify Met conditions which might trap a pilot, but very little information has come forward.We can certainly learn not to fly with less than the legal distance from cloud, but what happens when the weather closes in behind and around you?

Planning. I was in that situation last Sunday, but I knew what was coming, I was constantly watching TAF's/ARFOR's and every move I made I had a back up plan. Each time I punched into the crap I had an out pre-planned, and I never pursed an option unless I was comfortable that I could get out. In this day an age there is no excuse for it, we are spoiled with technology such as iPads, naips online and ozrunways/avplan. And there is always a fall back and that is ATC. People seem scared to ask for assistance from ATC, yet it is my first call when I have issues. If you cant access the forecasts, they can.

 

 

[FlyingVizsla]

ATSB preliminary report Investigation: AO-2017-061 - Collision with terrain involving Cessna 172, VH-FYN, 12 km WNW of Ballina, NSW, on 16 June 2017

 

Collision with terrain involving Cessna 172, VH-FYN, 12 km WNW of Ballina, NSW, on 16 June 2017

 

Early news reports said it was a helicopter - perhaps this picture lent credence to that assumption?

 

 

 

[alf jessup]

The weather

 

It has killed thousands of VFR and a large number of IFR pilots since the dawn of aviation and will continue to do so in the future as long as pilots push in to it

 

Cumulusgranitus, Cumulusearthus and Cumulustimberous are very unforgiving cloud formations that every VFR pilot should stay well away from when they get close to the ground

 

 

[Geoff13]

I don't believe the weather kills VFR pilots at all. I believe that pilots kill VFR pilots.

 

Until we take responsibility for our own actions, it will continue to happen.

 

 

[alf jessup]

I don't believe the weather kills VFR pilots at all. I believe that pilots kill VFR pilots.Until we take responsibility for our own actions, it will continue to happen.

As I said Geoff

If you continue to push into it you will lose out eventually

 

You are correct on the point that pilots kill themselves more times than not with the help of the weather as without these weather conditions there probably wouldn't be anything to report on

 

Thanks for the caution, it's my first one and it's going straight to the pool room

 

 

[facthunter]

Weather can change fairly fast. You can't rely on forecasts. They are frequently WRONG. Local knowledge can be very useful but you must monitor the weather around you and understand what cold fronts and fog etc are all about. Why the cloud base is where it is. Understand air mass analysis and mixing, orographic uplift adiabatic cooling wet and dry bulb figures and their meaning. Some types of cloud indicate approaching fronts with about 400 Kms warning. Rapidly rising cumulus indicate moisture and a high lapse rate.... Perhaps local storms later in the day. and the formation of Cb. Don't get downwind of a fully developed Cb (HAIL) Check Anvil Cirrus.

 

On the flying, many still believe they will always know which way is up and which way is down. Well you won't as when it's all cloud the only thing you have is instruments and your skills at flying by them. Seat of the pants is your enemy, not your friend then. Although you may fly instruments ok (if you have them) you still need recent practice and must know exactly where you are and where the hills are and their height .It doesn't always coincide with what the altimeter reads as it is calibrated on assumptions of a standard atmosphere. so you need margins. for safety. Lowest Safe Alt. Try to remain clear of cloud always and be ready to turn around. Know what the weather behind you is doing. If you are in a valley it must be wide enough and you should be at one side to give you room for your turn radius plus some. Watch out for smoke on cane or forest burning off days . The smoke can mask cloud if you are flying above it towards the coast particularly (moist air) later in the day when cooling starts. That's just a little bit. Just having a forecast isn't enough.. Nev.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Weather can change fairly fast. You can't rely on forecasts. They are frequently WRONG. Local knowledge can be very useful but you must monitor the weather around you and understand what cold fronts and fog etc are all about. Why the cloud base is where it is. Understand air mass analysis and mixing, orographic uplift adiabatic cooling wet and dry bulb figures and their meaning. Some types of cloud indicate approaching fronts with about 400 Kms warning. Rapidly rising cumulus indicate moisture and a high lapse rate.... Perhaps local storms later in the day. and the formation of Cb. Don't get downwind of a fully developed Cb (HAIL) Check Anvil Cirrus.On the flying, many still believe they will always know which way is up and which way is down. Well you won't as when it's all cloud the only thing you have is instruments and your skills at flying by them. Seat of the pants is your enemy, not your friend then. Although you may fly instruments ok (if you have them) you still need recent practice and must know exactly where you are and where the hills are and their height .It doesn't always coincide with what the altimeter reads as it is calibrated on assumptions of a standard atmosphere. so you need margins. for safety. Lowest Safe Alt. Try to remain clear of cloud always and be ready to turn around. Know what the weather behind you is doing. If you are in a valley it must be wide enough and you should be at one side to give you room for your turn radius plus some. Watch out for smoke on cane or forest burning off days . The smoke can mask cloud if you are flying above it towards the coast particularly (moist air) later in the day when cooling starts. That's just a little bit. Just having a forecast isn't enough.. Nev.

To know all that about the weather you'd have to do that Met thingy.

 

 

[shafs64]

if had and auto pilot that might of helped. but it was a 1976 model so i doubt it had one.

 

 

[Cessnasteve]

When I first started flying in the mid 70's my instructor told me:

 

THERE ARE OLD PILOTS

 

THERE ARE BOLD PILOTS

 

THERE ARE NO OLD BOLD PILOTS

 

Quite unfortunately this little saying never loses its relevance.

 

It's always sad when we lose one of our own.

 

 

[ian00798]

While not knowing the exact details on what happened, if you end up in inadvertent IMC for goodness sake call ATC, you would be surprised how much we can help and sometimes it can just be because you have the calm voice talking to you which prevents poor decisions. We also have some very qualified pilots working as ATC who can help out. On the same day this unfortunate accident happened another pilot got caught in IMC just near Evans head, and he called ATC for assistance. He is now home alive with his family, that's how big a difference it can make.

 

I really don't quite understand the aversion to asking for help, yes you may get some paperwork but that is a much more pleasant outcome. And no matter how busy the controller seems, call up, the controllers will make you the new priority one.

 

 

[Camel]

While not knowing the exact details on what happened, if you end up in inadvertent IMC for goodness sake call ATC, you would be surprised how much we can help and sometimes it can just be because you have the calm voice talking to you which prevents poor decisions. We also have some very qualified pilots working as ATC who can help out. On the same day this unfortunate accident happened another pilot got caught in IMC just near Evans head, and he called ATC for assistance. He is now home alive with his family, that's how big a difference it can make.I really don't quite understand the aversion to asking for help, yes you may get some paperwork but that is a much more pleasant outcome. And no matter how busy the controller seems, call up, the controllers will make you the new priority one.

So true, I go caught unable to continue a flight in VMC and was near Canberra and called and got immediate assistance, was told to sqwark ident and confirmed I was on radar, continue alt and heading, cleared to land at will once runway was sighted, it prevented me entering IMC and if I had delayed any longer I would have been in more serious trouble due to a storm and high ground, the controllers at Canberra did a fantastic job and very calm and reassuring, lots of red and white jets waiting for me to land.

 

 

[Fairoaks Flyer]

The pilot of VH-FYN was flying over high ground west of the coast. If he had changed course to the east he would have been over the coastline with a better chance of survival. Yes, agreed, it is better to call ATC and get radar vectoring. The cloud base was extremely low and patchy, and often right down on the deck on Friday. He was probably following a direct GPS line from Southport to Ballina. He could have landed at Tyagarah. Reports in GC Bulletin say his wife was driving down to pick him up. This may have been a case of "get there itis"? A very sad outcome.

 

 

[rollerball]

Weather can change fairly fast. You can't rely on forecasts. They are frequently WRONG. Local knowledge can be very useful but you must monitor the weather around you and understand what cold fronts and fog etc are all about. Why the cloud base is where it is. Understand air mass analysis and mixing, orographic uplift adiabatic cooling wet and dry bulb figures and their meaning. Some types of cloud indicate approaching fronts with about 400 Kms warning. Rapidly rising cumulus indicate moisture and a high lapse rate.... Perhaps local storms later in the day. and the formation of Cb. Don't get downwind of a fully developed Cb (HAIL) Check Anvil Cirrus.On the flying, many still believe they will always know which way is up and which way is down. Well you won't as when it's all cloud the only thing you have is instruments and your skills at flying by them. Seat of the pants is your enemy, not your friend then. Although you may fly instruments ok (if you have them) you still need recent practice and must know exactly where you are and where the hills are and their height .It doesn't always coincide with what the altimeter reads as it is calibrated on assumptions of a standard atmosphere. so you need margins. for safety. Lowest Safe Alt. Try to remain clear of cloud always and be ready to turn around. Know what the weather behind you is doing. If you are in a valley it must be wide enough and you should be at one side to give you room for your turn radius plus some. Watch out for smoke on cane or forest burning off days . The smoke can mask cloud if you are flying above it towards the coast particularly (moist air) later in the day when cooling starts. That's just a little bit. Just having a forecast isn't enough.. Nev.

Please do not misunderstand this reply - I am not seeking an argument for the sake of it. However, as a pilot who was trained to fly in IMC and had a rating to do so, this kind of reply makes me weep. It implies that so long as you judge that you can beat incoming bad weather, even if things become a bit touch and go in the process, you can do it and get away with it.

 

The fact is that you might a few times, albeit it with a few brown trouser jobs, but on balance over an extended period experience and the air accident statistics say that you won't.

 

The first thing that you are shown by your instructor when commencing instrument training is that in IMC you, an experienced pilot, cannot rely on your experience and senses that have stood you in such good stead up to then. He tells you to close your eyes and then tell him what the aircraft is doing. When you do, he tells you to open them again and to your surprise (and hopefully, dismay) you find that it's in an incredibly extreme attitude that you had no inkling of whatsoever.

 

Then you are told that without three things, your chance of survival in such conditions, is extremely limited - these being a stable, properly equipped instrument platform, proper training and regular ongoing instrument experience. Most pilots don't have these things - not all, just most.

 

And when I start to read about needing to understand 'air mass analysis and mixing, orographic uplift, adiabatic cooling etc etc blah blah', I just say to myself that, if I'm having to ask myself about such matters, is my flight really worth it? Accidents such as this one, and it's just one of many as they come along one after another after another, tell me that if there's any doubt and you have to get there, FFS go by road.

 

I also disagree that 'weather can change so quickly that it can catch you out' but that I think is another discussion.

 

 

[farri]

Same ****, same result, different participant. When will we learn???

Looks like it but please leave the WE out of it.

 

Frank.

 

 

[facthunter]

So Understanding weather is not a good idea? and I certainly am NOT suggesting you fly in IMC. All of that article is written from personal experience not theory or pushing some agenda. If you cant get something out of it I suggest YOU have a problem. Not understanding something is never a good thing. If you fly local all the time it's a lesser problem but if you fly distances you will have to do more than just get a few weather reports and head off. Coastal particularly is subject to deterioration and often fog will form when not forecast. There are several forms of fog. Many of the points you run I've already addressed. See my seat of the pants reference. If you find all the met knowledge "Bla Bla Bla" (which is pretty insulting so thanks for that) but you obviously lack basic met Knowledge, because I only used a few BASIC terms. that apply some of the most important considerations. Glider pilots must know a lot about Met and how the air behaves. Met knowledge is lacking in depth in the powered pilot syllabus generally and forecasts are not getting more reliable so it's sensible to learn more. It may save your life and being an "airman" means you should/must know these things for you and your passengers safety, to fly responsibly. Incidently, SAFETY is my thing, so you have touched a nerve. Nev

 

 

[rollerball]

Nev, I'm sorry that you took it personally but it wasn't intended to be so. You and I both have strong opinions and are entitled to express them without it developing into a slanging match surely.

 

But the fact is that these accidents keep happening and all I'm saying is that it's wrong to suggest that unqualified pilots in unsuitably equipped aircraft should think that even if they have superior knowledge they'll be able to dodge the weather and wing it. In recent months here in the UK we've had a whole family wiped out in an IMC equipped aircraft (but pilot not qualified) on a family trip to Devon, a young boy severely injured and his parents both killed within sight of Popham airfield returning to the UK from the continent in marginal visibility, a young couple killed flying into a hillside in Scotland in low cloud on the way to a family wedding reception and a businessman, his wife and his brother lost in a helicopter in Wales similarly on their way to a family wedding in Ireland. And that's just off the top of my head.

 

The common factor in every incident was that they knew what the weather forecast was before they took off and thought that with their superior knowledge and experience they could beat it. But they didn't. And it looks as though it was the same for this Cessna pilot. What a tragic waste.

 

 

[shafs64]

I would love to see this part our forum die. but we are here just about every week saying should of could of would of.

 

 

[Ozfergie]

It is the most repeated fatal, but there is precious little information supplied by CASA to learn from other than broad-based statements. I started a thread on this site hoping people could come forward with better ways to identify Met conditions which might trap a pilot, but very little information has come forward.We can certainly learn not to fly with less than the legal distance from cloud, but what happens when the weather closes in behind and around you?

Where is the thread on Met Conditions, please?

 

 

[turboplanner]

I would love to see this part our forum die. but we are here just about every week saying should of could of would of.

A major part of the solution is for CASA to address it in detail, and get away from broad-based motherhood statements.

There is no way this is going to be fixed by single sentence solutions.

 

It's clear, even in this thread that some pilots don't know how to identify the likely threats, let alone ignore them due to getthereitis etc.

 

It's also clear that some pilots think that whatever instruments they have in their aircraft will be enough to get them through, and have no concept of instrument flying.

 

The Meteorology training to PPL level is rudimentary, but at least gives a pilot some idea of what weather patterns will be threatening, but in RAA, and I'm happy to be corrected, I believe student pilots are only steered towards limited some very limited reference books.

 

"Don't fly into cloud" hasn't been enough to prevent the carnage for the last 100 years, more of the same will just get more of the same.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Where is the thread, please?

It's buried so deep, I'll have to make an effort to find it; will get back to you.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Where is the thread on Met Conditions, please?

Here: VMC

I also found two other threads:

 

• How to judge cloud separation height
   
   
  
• Clouds