CESSNA down at Ballina /fatal

[Guest extralite]

Seems everyone believes they are the superior pilot. Nobody knows what happened to the poor bugger yet. Could be medical. Weather was worse than the forecast here that day. Any one of us could smack in one day for all sorts of improbable events and many experienced and safe pilots do, but would it be nice to know every expert on a forum was pontificating about your judgement errors before knowing the facts? We are all human and shit happens sometimes that is unexpected. I'm not suggesting we don't speculate. but a bit more empathy would be nice for a fellow lover of flying.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Seems everyone believes they are the superior pilot. Nobody knows what happened to the poor bugger yet. Could be medical. Weather was worse than the forecast here that day. Any one of us could smack in one day for all sorts of improbable events and many experienced and safe pilots do, but would it be nice to know every expert on a forum was pontificating about your judgement errors before knowing the facts? We are all human and **** happens sometimes that is unexpected. I'm not suggesting we don't speculate. but a bit more empathy would be nice for a fellow lover of flying.

People are not so much criticising this pilot as warning others about the difficulty and risks with bad weather. It usually happens in the May-June period, and the aim is to prevent repeats. In the past I've seen as many as 6 or 7 pilots go in during this period but in more recent years it's been two or three and I'd like to think the discussions and warnings are keeping the other three at home, or making better informed decisions bad-weather days.

 

 

[rollerball]

People are not so much criticising this pilot as warning others about the difficulty and risks with bad weather. It usually happens in the May-June period, and the aim is to prevent repeats. In the past I've seen as many as 6 or 7 pilots go in during this period but in more recent years it's been two or three and I'd like to think the discussions and warnings are keeping the other three at home, or making better informed decisions bad-weather days.

Hear hear. There's always someone who comes on and starts to berate everyone else for being 'critical' or not showing enough 'feeling' or 'respect'. All that does is stifle debate on what seems to me to have been a useful discussion about flight safety and weather related problems that has reflected an interesting range of varied and differing opinions. I don't see how doing that has said anything about this unfortunate pilot's skills or experience and I'm sure that if he'd been asked beforehand, like all the rest of us I'm sure, at the very least he'd have wanted some good to come out of what has happened. Not talking about it prevents that happening, so nothing personal extralite, but I also disagree with you.

 

 

[Guest extralite]

Hear hear. There's always someone who comes on and starts to berate everyone else for being 'critical' or not showing enough 'feeling' or 'respect'. All that does is stifle debate on what seems to me to have been a useful discussion about flight safety and weather related problems that has reflected an interesting range of varied and differing opinions. I don't see how doing that has said anything about this unfortunate pilot's skills or experience and I'm sure that if he'd been asked beforehand, like all the rest of us I'm sure, at the very least he'd have wanted some good to come out of what has happened. Not talking about it prevents that happening, so nothing personal extralite, but I also disagree with you.

[Guest extralite]

im not suggesting we don't debate. But seems to me a lot of tch tch dont fly into cloud vfr. I'm sure the pilot concerned was well aware of that just as we are. anyway that's aviation

 

 

[peter2480]

Train for IFR rating. It will make any pilot a significantly more proficient pilot with more confidence to make critical decisions at the best time. Will this prevent this type of incident? Almost certainly not. No system is bulletproof.

 

 

[ian00798]

The great thing about training for IFR is it makes you realise how much you have to have going for you to safely fly in poor conditions, ie flight planning, aircraft equipment, pilot recency etc, so you are far less likely to push into it when you shouldn't because you understand IMC better.

 

 

[peter2480]

The great thing about training for IFR is it makes you realise how much you have to have going for you to safely fly in poor conditions, ie flight planning, aircraft equipment, pilot recency etc, so you are far less likely to push into it when you shouldn't because you understand IMC better.

That's exactly right Ian.. Its all about 'headspace'.

 

 

[eightyknots]

Train for IFR rating. It will make any pilot a significantly more proficient pilot with more confidence to make critical decisions at the best time. Will this prevent this type of incident? Almost certainly not. No system is bulletproof.

Do you know what is coming? Do you mean there "will soon be an RA-Aus IFR rating available at a town near you"?

 

 

[alf jessup]

Do you know what is coming? Do you mean there "will soon be an RA-Aus IFR rating available at a town near you"?

eightyknots

Probably be able to get it from a BUNNINGS AEROSPACE store near you soon

 

 

[eightyknots]

eightyknotsProbably be able to get it from a BUNNINGS AEROSPACE store near you soon

 

 

[ian00798]

Do you know what is coming? Do you mean there "will soon be an RA-Aus IFR rating available at a town near you"?

I doubt it, but there are other organisations you can fly with that will also improve your RA flying and decision making as well

 

 

[frank marriott]

I have a CIR but would not consider flying a RAA size aircraft (quite apart from instrument/pitot heat etc considerations) in IMC. It can get very uncomfortable and very dark very quickly in real IMC as opposed to playing with instrument procedures on a computer/cheap simulator or a bit of under the hood training.

 

 

[Yenn]

The bit of instrument training that I have done was enough to teach me that it is dangerous to fly non IFR equipped aircraft into clouds. Plus it is dangerous to fly IFR equipped aircraft if you are not fully trained and up to speed. I have heard many pilots saying how they could fly with just a compass and altimeter and boasting that they have done so.

 

I just wonder what the training for RAAus involves met wise after reading posts here. To get my PPL I had to do meteorology to a standard that appears to be beyond that attained by RAAus. I also wonder why so many pilots fly closer to cloud than is legal, they seem to think that it would be impossible for an IFR flight to pop out of the clouds and they also do it without the help of a transponder. Madness

 

 

[peter2480]

I have a CIR but would not consider flying a RAA size aircraft (quite apart from instrument/pitot heat etc considerations) in IMC. It can get very uncomfortable and very dark very quickly in real IMC as opposed to playing with instrument procedures on a computer/cheap simulator or a bit of under the hood training.

Just to refresh - this thread was commenced wrt a GA aircraft, correct. And no I am not suggesting flying RAA-AUS in IMC, nor am I suggesting that those who are not trained and proficient and current should fly in IMC. The process of attaining an IFR rating is the bit that many pilots could find invaluable - Bob Tait has a great set of study books and after all it is not rocket science - just commitment to further education, particularly Met.

Funny thing though, attempt at humour after such an incident gives a bit of a sour taste don't you think.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Bob Tait has a great set of study books and after all it is not rocket science

That's central to the problem (not what Bob Tait has written, but the tiny amount of study)

Like teaching yourself brain surgery by correspondence.

 

 

[peter2480]

Perhaps. But there is a difference between improving depth of knowledge and instrument training. There is a centre to the problem but additional learning is probably not it.

 

 

[facthunter]

It seems to be how far is too far in dumbing things down, sometimes. Understanding weather is something you work on and should get better the longer you fly IF you bother to chase up good stuff. It's not easy and never was. Even airliners get caught out and have to divert to $#!ttY airports with hardly any fuel on board sometimes. Any complaint to the MET people goes nowhere but the dustbin so the ONUS is all on the pilot. That's why YOU always have a way out . A REAL way out, not just have forecasts that meet the basic requirements laid down

 

and flight plans that pass a ramp check. A plan "B" at all phases of flight should be in existence.

 

WE fly some of our types of aircraft right across this country so we need MET. far more than most and certainly more than when we flew Winton grasshoppers and Quicksilver MX's at 300 feet in the local area.

 

The essence of IMC flying is trust only your instruments. Don't rely on the seat of your pants feel. It will misguide you. That means the "instruments" must be of a quality worth trusting TSO'd and the power sources must be reliable. U/L's won't meet that demand generally. You also need pitot heat, and if you get into clouds they are wet and if it's cold it freezes. also wooden props don't like rain drops, so really you shouldn't be there.

 

I'm like a lot of others here . Sick of hearing about people "going in" in cloud. If you make a habit of doing it and your are not trained you won't last. I've lost plenty of mates who did just that and I thought some of them were very careful pilots with a lot of experience. Being able to fly in IMC doesn't stop you flying into a hill or cliff if you aren't sure where you are and that's the end of everything, or you just lose it and go into a spiral and the speed builds up and you hit very hard because you got a bit tired with the concentration required Nev.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Perhaps. But there is a difference between improving depth of knowledge and instrument training. There is a centre to the problem but additional learning is probably not it.

What I'm saying is that improving depth of knowledge is a very small part of it, then you have to learn the skills, and maintain currency, then you have to learn to flight plan so you don't smack into mountains or towers, then you have to learn the flight regulations to avoid flying across the nose of a Dash 8, and how to find an airport, then you have to learn what constitutes and IFR rated aircraft.

A good person to explain the workload to be able to do all this would be a CPL student who has got through PPL and is now hitting the next buzz saw of the learning curve.

 

 

[poteroo]

WE fly some of our types of aircraft right across this country so we need MET. far more than most and certainly more than when we flew Winton grasshoppers and Quicksilver MX's at 300 feet in the local area.

I think FH has identified a reason for the continued and, perhaps, the increasing incidence of pilots flying into non-VMC weather. Yes, it seems to me that, just because we have a 'full panel' of flight instruments, a very capable GPS and a TXP in a 100KTAS LSA: that it emboldens a VFR pilot to try to push through wx which they would have avoided in a less capable aircraft.

 

And, there's no doubt that having more capable aircraft in RAAus allows us to undertake some expansive trips. I returned home to Albany yesterday in my Brumby high-wing and the trip from Cowra took me 21 hrs, for a 1708nm trip. The low (80kt) average was due to constant headwinds at every altitude, plus weather diversions,(3), and landings at unintended locations,(3). I had to contend with a troughline and showers, then overwater flight under a relatively low cloud base, then widespread early am fog, then blowing dust, then a stormline with heavy rain, and then a lower-than-I'm prepared-to-fly cloud base.

 

But, I'm proof positive that a situationally sensitive coward can fly for many years without becoming a weather statistic.

 

As the saying goes...... it's better to be on the ground looking up, (at the weather?), than in the air wishing you were down there.

 

 

[facthunter]

It pays to be a live chickenman, rather than a dead hero where weather is concerned. It's worse when you are doing charter (commercially) where there is extra pressure to try to get through. It doesn't matter how far up the industry you go you will still encounter weather related limitations at various times where you will be on a limit or have a runway closed on you due a mishap or other reason, at short notice. Storms or fog will close an airport. Several times I've landed a jet on a runway where the other end was in heavy rain or fog.( Gove and Adelaide respectively). You also get monsoonal rains so heavy you wonder how the plane can fly in it in the tropics. This happens when you fly schedules. (Timetables)

 

IMC training has always been "it" for me and the plane is always legally equipped for IFR. That doesn't guarantee everything going smoothly. I've had my artificial Horizon topple at the point of rotation slowly and I could have followed it but referred to the other TWO instinctively. That's all legal and could have easily been a total right off and no one would know why. It would be "Pilot Error". according to the experts. Plenty of other incidents like acquaplaning for four hundred metres and maintaining centreline with rudder only . Enjoy your "fly when it suites YOU" status. It's the best kind but still watch out for the weather, and survive.Nev

 

 

[APenNameAndThatA]

IMHO, the first thing to do is to not assume that you are wiser than pilots who kill themselves like this. My strategy is to not fly without synthetic vision. Synthetic vision, fuel injection, parachute: those things would increase safety without requiring extra wisdom. It would help if the plane is a) not tooooo aerodynamic and b) not old enough to rot.

 

As for get home itis (inflammation of the get home?). I recommend not going somewhere you need to be when you CAN, so that you add not turning up because of the airplane to your behavioural repertoire.

 

 

[alf jessup]

Wise old saying

 

If you have time to spare go by air

 

If you HAVE to get there!!! Drive

 

Weather forecasts are only a prediction, things can change rapidly and be unforeseen

 

If there is any doubt reconsider it if you are already in the air, a simple 180 while you can might just save your family a lot of grief

 

 

[turboplanner]

Wise old sayingIf you have time to spare go by air

If you HAVE to get there!!! Drive

 

Weather forecasts are only a prediction, things can change rapidly and be unforeseen

 

If there is any doubt reconsider it if you are already in the air, a simple 180 while you can might just save your family a lot of grief

All of that plus, although weather forecasts are a prediction, a NAIPS forecast is designed for airmen, and will include such things as known turbulence, which can also cost your life.

 

 

[alf jessup]

All of that plus, although weather forecasts are a prediction, a NAIPS forecast is designed for airmen, and will include such things as known turbulence, which can also cost your life.

Correct TP