Light plane crashes in SA's South East

[SSCBD]

Again, may I suggest a bit of common sense with Angel Flight. And change the rule of single pilot ops.

 

Maybe they should require two pilots on board, one to act as a safety pilot, and as a second voice in the ear of the PIC.

 

This would also cover hopefully correct any inflight medical incidence with our aging pilots, or bad decisions being made to get the pax to the appointment. Not being rude about our aging pilots by its just common sense with the public not knowing the risks.

 

 

[snarf007]

The following videos appeared on my Youtube feed yesterday....

 

 

 

[Mike Borgelt]

Medical emergency helicopters in the USA had a very bad record vs the rest of the helo industry a while back. Having a noble cause sometimes causes problems.

 

Anyone remember the helicopter that crashed in Queensland a few years ago after running out of fuel in fog? 5 dead and IIRC the medical emergency wasn't all that dire.

 

 

[Yenn]

Was that the flight that originated at Hamilton Island? Or was it another flight around the same time. The one from Hamilton Island could have been done by a fixed wing plane much more safely/

 

 

[facthunter]

It's unusual to find high risk taking with "older" pilots. I reckon it's done more often with people of lesser experience who have yet to scare them selves $#!tless. Where some start flying later perhaps it's different. I've seen plenty of motorcycle riders start later in life and NEVER ride any good and have a series of bad accidents. You can pick the guys (and ladies) with riding experience, particularly if they have raced, and acquired the right skills and judgement. They are often not high risk takers on the road.

 

With pilots it's hard to judge. They won't do it when on a check or if an instructor is with them. put on a good show and when no one's watching do anything. Nev

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

Here's what I would do if I was CASA... I would produce a standard form which said the the flight needed good weather to happen. To be read out to prospective passengers. Invite them to have a plan "B" in the event of bad weather.

 

Then I would liase with the medical funding arm of government to get the recipients of government medical money to agree that turning up late for an appointment would be ok if aviation-related reasons applied.

 

What if the girl had waited a year for this appointment and she and her mother pressured the pilot? This is pure surmise, but if it happened, then the government actually had the power to prevent the crash but was too stupid do so.

 

 

[dunlopdangler]

It is already done Bruce.. look into their publications about setting your own standards..

 

 

[dunlopdangler]

There is no excuse whatsoever for the reality of this tragedy

 

 

[ben87r]

Again, may I suggest a bit of common sense with Angel Flight. And change the rule of single pilot ops. Maybe they should require two pilots on board, one to act as a safety pilot, and as a second voice in the ear of the PIC.

This would also cover hopefully correct any inflight medical incidence with our aging pilots, or bad decisions being made to get the pax to the appointment. Not being rude about our aging pilots by its just common sense with the public not knowing the risks.

Having two pilots could create as many issues as it fixes. There is a wide spread of pilot ages and experience with angel flight as well as aircraft types. I've heard of a B200 and a citation doing angel flights on empty sectors. I don't think a blanket rule here would be appropriate but I imagine CAsA will come up with something, what that is ive no idea.

 

 

[alf jessup]

Angel Flight is not the problem

 

The problem is the generous and voluntary pilots who make very poor decisions in very poor weather

 

This is now 6 lives or more from memory lost in recent years in bad weather

 

Pilots are donating their time and aircraft there should be no pressure on them to complete the mission

 

The pressure is self inflicted

 

 

[SSCBD]

Again, may I suggest a bit of common sense with Angel Flight. And change the rule of single pilot ops.Maybe they should require two pilots on board, one to act as a safety pilot, and as a second voice in the ear of the PIC.

This would also cover hopefully correct any inflight medical incidence with our aging pilots, or bad decisions being made to get the pax to the appointment. Not being rude about our aging pilots by its just common sense with the public not knowing the risks.

To clarify my position, I am suggesting that all Angel flights that operate with GA PPL pilots of any age, be two pilot operation.

 

 

[SSCBD]

)

 

Angel Flight is not the problemThe problem is the generous and voluntary pilots who make very poor decisions in very poor weather

This is now 6 lives or more from memory lost in recent years in bad weather

 

Pilots are donating their time and aircraft there should be no pressure on them to complete the mission

 

The pressure is self inflicted

Yes but this is lack of commercial aircraft operation from private pilots in my opinion. Also flying marginal conditions to not let down the person being transported when only VFR rated. Ego or I can do this because they have waited (guess 2 months to get a doctors appointment for example) is putting pressure on the pilot to go. Even a PPL with a night rating gives some under the hood instrument flying. However two heads is always better than one even when one is just a security pilot double checking the PICs thinking or doing the radios for example

 

 

[dunlopdangler]

Sscbd, there are a lot of aircraft flown everyday in private operations from RAA aircraft through to jets single pilot (business flying for instance) where the pilot will face the go/no go scenario and pressure with getting themselves and or staff to very important meetings and you as the PIC need to make that command decision and I know I have faced this many times myself.. both in business flying and AF.. no one has ever questioned my decision.. Poor decision making isn't only confined to aircraft ops.. just look at some of the accidents on our roads.....do we put two steering wheels in your car?

 

 

[ian00798]

I think running an impromptu multi crew operation is a terribly dangerous idea. A lot of accidents are caused by breakdown in crew coordination, and that's even with the professionals. Multi crew needs training, clearly defined duties and also as per part 61, a multi crew cooperation certificate.

 

 

[SSCBD]

Sscbd, there are a lot of aircraft flown everyday in private operations from RAA aircraft through to jets single pilot (business flying for instance) where the pilot will face the go/no go scenario and pressure with getting themselves and or staff to very important meetings and you as the PIC need to make that command decision and I know I have faced this many times myself.. both in business flying and AF.. no one has ever questioned my decision.. Poor decision making isn't only confined to aircraft ops.. just look at some of the accidents on our roads.....do we put two steering wheels in your car?

Well its not working well now for Angel flight. This has killed people.

 

These pilots may not have your experience to get to important meetings under pressure and are put in a position to do it now.

 

These people in need of medical transport assistance are not flying as we do, and also do not understand the risks as we do.

 

Nor are they flying with commercial pilots or on QANTAS which is why angel flight is here.

 

Also - Angel Flight cannot use RAA pilots or RAA aircraft for a start.

 

Also Ian, impromptu multi crew operation is a terribly dangerous idea -

 

Really why it worked for many years in RPT before even AUF or RAA existed in GA.

 

I am trying to provide a simple solution to the PPL VFR PIC EGO or the must get them to wherever now, with another pilot, assuming both PPL rated VFR only that can take the HUMAN FACTOR as everyone calls it, to be a voice of reason in the ear of the PIC (TAKE OUT the pic tunnel vison syndrome) or your are pushing it mate too hard, or its a no go.

 

I think angel care is a great vision and service but immature in its operation dealing with people that are unaware and limitations of PPL VFR pilots as this accident has probably proved with loss of life.

 

Yes some PPL,s may be IFR rated, and even ex commercial but those who are just straight weekend PPL VFR rated and in bad or heading into marginal weather is always a risk to high with non flying PAX and a person /s that have no other option to get to the medical appointment.

 

I don't want to argue, but a solution must be found to stop any further Angel flight crashes and deaths or as stated in this thread it may be stopped by CASA wjich would be a very said day to country Australia.

 

 

[Bernie Knight]

Being reasonably new to all of this..

 

I'm wondering how CASA?. can stop owners and pilots doing Angel flights.

 

If I want to take a passenger for a flight, be it to a location near a hospital etc and there's no payment, how can I be stopped..

 

Do pilots receive insurance coverage or other benefits that deem it for hire or profit. Do they get fuel Avgas top ups etc covered.

 

I guess I need to research Angel Flight a little. As I said this is all new to me..

 

 

[ben87r]

It 'greys' the area of private operation by firstly allowing public notification and also in the way they 'cost share'. CASA are well aware of how it works and to their credit allow it to continue for the good that it achieves.

 

As mentioned above AF isn't the issue. Personally I can see increased pilot minimums coming.

 

 

[Bernie Knight]

snarf007

 

Thanks for posting the videos. I found them very helpful.

 

Mmm I'm reading everything I can before my RV goes in for its next 100 hourly.

 

 

[pmccarthy]

Angel flight sets up commercial pressures without commercial training. Commercial pressure isn't just about money. I don't see how it can continue.

 

 

[Bernie Knight]

Ben,

 

Thanks yes makes a little more sense to me.

 

I do a little volunteer work with Ronald McDonald House and think it seems less complicated. I turn up do my bit and leave feeling good.

 

 

[onetrack]

Personally I can see increased pilot minimums coming.

And there's the answer, right there. The recent Angel Flight disaster causes can all be sheeted home to the inadequacy of the PIC's abilities.

Ensure that the AF PIC's have extensive hours on type, and higher levels of qualifications and skills, and the crash incidence will be substantially reduced.

 

It's nice to think that wealthy business people are being philanthropic by contributing their time, money and aircraft to assist those with health problems and little money - but that doesn't translate to those business people necessarily having the required level of training, skills and experience at the controls of their (often, recently-purchased) aircraft, for them to carry out air transport of the sick pax - in many cases, through quite adverse flying conditions - and also running to deadlines that they equate as critical.

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

It's the passengers and medical profession who need educating. CASA has made a good attempt to educate the pilots, although I didn't know of it till this thread.

 

Remember how Paul Keating got angry when a flight was delayed by his pilots because of weather? Luckily, they were able to stand their ground, unlike the Polish lot where the president and his entourage and the pilots all died.

 

If CASA won't do it, then Angel Flight need to make up a letter to explain to the non-pilots involved about how the flight could be cancelled or delayed by weather. This would make it easier for the pilot to stay on the ground. It would especially help if the medical specialist had agreed beforehand that the appointment would be flexible in this situation.

 

 

[facthunter]

As I commented earlier, It's front and central in Human Factors considerations. WE (RAAus) did some form of it (which I think should be revisited and introduce an interactive on-line refresher/ follow up. What do the PPL, RPL pilots do? I've also seen some Airline HF formats that are below par by a mile. Corrupted to make company profit a consideration. Where did THAT come from and who approved the course? Nev

 

 

[Teckair]

To clarify my position, I am suggesting that all Angel flights that operate with GA PPL pilots of any age, be two pilot operation.

I have seen a angel flight person transported in a RAAus registered 2 seat Jabiru.

 

 

[SSCBD]

I have seen a angel flight person transported in a RAAus registered 2 seat Jabiru.

What type of planes?

Flights are provided by volunteer pilots using their own aircraft or aircraft they have hired at their own expense. These aircraft are termed ‘General Aviation aircraft’ and most have 4 – 6 seats.

 

The aircraft will either be ‘High Wing’ where the wing is above the cockpit (not unlike getting into a 4WD) or ‘Low Wing’ where the cockpit is above the wing which requires passengers to climb up onto the wing and crouch down into the cockpit (a bit like getting into a small sports car).

 

What type of pilots?

 

The flight credentials of our volunteer pilots and aircraft owners exceed the minimum requirements of CASA for private flight in Australia and the aircraft meet specified regulatory and insurance minimums.

 

Our volunteer pilots come from all walks of life and are required to have more than 250 hours as a ‘Pilot in Command’; a current medical clearance and all relevant experience and endorsements for the type of aircraft they will be flying.

 

Angel Flight volunteer pilots donate their time, their skills and the majority of their aircraft costs for each flight. To help offset the pilots’ operating costs Angel Flight Australia subsidises fuel used on flights, negotiates the waiver of landing fees at many supporting airports around the country, and arranges the credit of any air navigation charges thanks to the support of Airservices Australia. Donations to Angel Flight are used to subsidise fuel costs.