Recovering a fabric aircraft

[Lou R]

I will be re covering my Mini Cab GY201 in the near future possibly using Orarex UL600. Can any one advise if there is an Australian agent that carries stock.

 

 

[old man emu]

It does look like a good system to eliminate the need to use dope, which is a good safety thing, and because dope is classed as a dangerous good, transport costs are greatly increased.

 

I don't think that there is a strong enough market here in Australia for a supplier to take it on right now. You will have to investigate the costs involved in dealing with an overseas retailer.

 

Interesting video of its being used:

 

Oratex Rudder Covering Demo

 

OME

 

 

[Yenn]

I contacted them about a year ago and got samples. They didn't have an Aussie agent then.

 

It looks like good stuff and none of the nasty chemicals to handle. I put a bit of it on the aft fuselage of my corby, where I had to do a repair job. I used Stitts Polyfabric system for the original build and like it but to do repairs you have to buy far more of the finishing chemicals than needed.

 

 

[fatmal]

Lou,

 

Your post got me looking at their website - if you go to the catalog (http://www.betteraircraftfabric.com/flyer.pdf), on the last page it seems that there is an Australian aircraft flying with this covering. It may be worthwhile trying to track them down to see where they got their supplies (and their experience with the fabric).

 

mal

 

 

[old man emu]

The product seems to remove several steps from the covering process, which are mainly to do with sealing the fabric and giving it UV protection. These steps are the ones which add time and money to the job. You would still have to do some stitching, which I think that they mention by making reference to using only their type of stitching cord, and not the usual waxed cord used with coverings like Ceconite.

 

Looking at the figures they quote in their pricing comparisons, I think that the recovering job done with the product would be cheaper. It also pretty well ensures that there is less of a weight addition to the aircraft by using their product, and an aging starlette could well lose some unwanted pounds.

 

OME

 

 

[old man emu]

Lou, it seems that there is an Australian aircraft flying with this covering. It may be worthwhile trying to track them down to see where they got their supplies (and their experience with the fabric)

Anyone know a bloke named Alan Ronk who has a Just Aircraft SuperSTOL? Is this him? https://www.linkedin.com/in/allan-ronk-a55600b8/?ppe=1

 

 

[Soleair]

Looking at the figures they quote in their pricing comparisons, I think that the recovering job done with the product would be cheaper. It also pretty well ensures that there is less of a weight addition to the aircraft by using their product, and an aging starlette could well lose some unwanted pounds.

OME

Lighter, certainly. But way more expensive, unless you are paying for a professional spray job on a Ceconite covering. But some say the Oratex finish is not as good as a spray paint done well.

 

I looked into it for my MiniMax, but Oratex would have cost about 20% of the total project. I used non certified 1.8oz Dacron & acrylic house paint. My test piece has been outside 24/7 through 2 summers in full sun, with no degradation of any sort that I can detect. If you use the Stewart system for bonding, this is water based, so no nasty chemicals either.

 

Bruce

 

 

[old man emu]

I used non certified 1.8oz Dacron & acrylic house paint. Bruce

Don't take this as a criticism of YOUR plane, which I have not seen, but I have seen a few homebuilts painted with house paint, and in my opinion doing that is an insult. Beauty might only be skin deep, but a less than pristine paint job does nothing to honour the hours of hark work and skill that goes into a homebuilt.

 

Using this type of paint might prove less expensive than, say, automotive 2-Pack, but the result doesn't illicit WOW, more like WTF.

 

The Oratex process has some other drawbacks, mainly the costs involved in purchasing the ancillary equipment, but you'd still need an iron, needles and cord for a Ceconite job. Admittedly, I wouldn't buy one of the supplier's irons, just a cheap iron from K-Mart and a confectionery thermometer.

 

OME

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

That is like the old solarfilm but on steroids.....I think the Rans S20 Raven might get that treatments from me :)..sure saves a hell of a lot of other work inc painting

 

 

[Soleair]

OME, that is a fairly typical reaction from those who recoil at the prospect of using house paint on a plane.

 

But I suggest it is misguided. There is no reason why modern acrylic paint, skilfully sprayed, should not yield a comparable finish to car paint. And house paint has advantages over car paint, not least its flexibility and u.v. protection qualities, quite apart from its lower cost. Modern acrylics are more akin to a flexible plastic coating than old fashioned powdery paint crudely daubed onto a work of art.

 

For those who are interested in learning with an open mind, the American homebuilder organisation EAA has some excellent online videos on using latex paint for homebuilt aircraft. [Note that what our American cousins call 'latex' paint is actually acrylic - their paint has not contained latex for many years, but it has become the common name for house paint].

 

The videos will show just how good a finish can be obtained from acrylics, with very high gloss if that's what you want. And many homebuilders will attest to periods in excess of 10 years life for this paint.

 

I agree it sounds awful to spend thousands of dollars & hours building a plane & then using house paint, because of its associations. But when you consider the harsh conditions experienced by houses - exposed 24/7 to very high solar radiation, temperature extremes, wind & rain - then it is unsurprising that a plane spending most of its life in a hangar will still look very good after many years.

 

Conversely, some owners have complained of cracking after relatively short periods using automotive paints.

 

But of course it is possible to point to both good & bad results from both paints. Personally, I am very pleased with my acrylic paint job, despite my lack of skill with a spray gun. And my test piece of wing has withstood more sun & rain already than my plane will in its entire life.

 

Howsomever, you pays your money and you takes your choice. It just may pay you to make that choice objectively.

 

Bruce

 

 

[planesmaker]

I doubt oratex will save weight. I recently removed all fabric from a skyfox and weighed it. 6.5 kg including paint! This from entire airframe.

 

 

[old man emu]

But I suggest it is misguided. There is no reason why modern acrylic paint, skilfully sprayed, should not yield a comparable finish to car paint. And house paint has advantages over car paint, not least its flexibility and u.v. protection qualities, quite apart from its lower cost. Modern acrylics are more akin to a flexible plastic coating than old fashioned powdery paint crudely daubed onto a work of art.

'Twould appear that I have been trampled by the march of Progress!. My opinion was formed after having seen some aircraft which had been painted with a brush. Any paint job is going to look better if the paint is applied with a spray gun. That gives a more even, and thinner coat.

 

How do you get a glossy finish, or have I only seen planes painted with the wrong paint? The only plane I have seen that looked good with a matte finish is some old D-Day veteran lurking around Camden Airport.

 

OME

 

 

[Lou R]

Thanks for all the replies guys.

 

OME - have sent an email to Allan Ronk, the Super Stol is his aircraft, hopfully he may be able to assist with the info.

 

Cheers, Lou

 

 

[old man emu]

OME - have sent an email to Allan Ronk, the Super Stol is his aircraft, hopfully he may be able to assist with the info.Cheers, Lou

Good luck. I foind him on Linkdin.

 

 

[Yenn]

I have seen automotive paints used on fabric on a drifter, but the usual consideration is that they are nor flexible enough for fabric.

 

I don't know what the finish on my Corby weighs, but the weight of the materials used was considerable. From memory there would have been probably 10kg of paint alone and the weight of the fabric is very little. Another consideration is the unhealthy materials used. you need a full filter breathing system with air collected from somewhere well away from the spray area.

 

 

[rotax618]

A plasticiser must be added to automotive paint, plasticisers are added to auto paint when it is to be used to paint flexible plastic parts. From my experience 2 pack auto paint gives a good finish to nitrate doped ceconite, but silver paste must be added to the dope to provide UV protection and the 2 pack paint doesnt adhere all that well to the silver dope surface. If the paint membrane is broken by hail, stones or hangar rash if can be peeled from the silver dope.

 

Wayne Fisher used to paint the partly weathered drifter flying surfaces with "house paint" to prolong the life of the sailcloth.

 

 

[WayneL]

I doubt oratex will save weight. I recently removed all fabric from a skyfox and weighed it. 6.5 kg including paint! This from entire airframe.

While on this subject I would be interested to here tips and opinion on how difficult or otherwise it is to remove fabric from a wood airframe? What is the best way to do this?

Wayne

 

 

[old man emu]

While on this subject I would be interested to here tips and opinion on how difficult or otherwise it is to remove fabric from a wood airframe? What is the best way to do this?Wayne

To start the process, you can cut the fabric to start a tear and then pull it off. If you are lucky, the fabric will come off the wood where it has been glued down. If the fabric doesn't come off, you can dissolve the glue with methyl ethyl ketone (MEK) and then pull the fabric off the wood. CAUTION. Only use MEK in a well ventilated area, and preferably wear a filter mask. Also you need to wear chemical resistant gloves.

OME

 

 

[aj_richo]

My hangar partner recently recovered his HyperLight SNS-8 biplane with Oratex, looks pretty good.

 

 

[Yenn]

MEK is about the only way to get Stitts Polyfabric off and MEK is very bad if you get it in your eyes. Supposedly it just about blinds you once it gets hold.

 

 

[Lou R]

Hi Yenn, been deciding whether to use Poly Fiber or Oratex, after exhaustive research Oratex is heads & shoulders above. Substantial weight saving, no painting and no solvents used which means i can do the restoration at home. Besides that it is very easy to repair / rejuvenate.

 

I am working on cost at the moment which is around $34 per square metre plus freight ex Germany.

 

 

[planesmaker]

How do you know you will save weight? From the company selling it? Like I said I have weighed a polyfibre fabric with paint and was surprised at how little it weighed. Not really any substantial weight savings there!

 

 

[Lou R]

Hi Planesmaker, my comments were based on information I found on Poly Fiber website where popular fabric finished weights were compared.

 

They include Ceconite, Poly Fibre, Air Teck (and cotton / dope) systems.

 

Their report on final weights based on covering a complete Cub aircraft were as follows:

 

Ceconite: 60lb requiring 80 gal of spraying material (12 coats)

 

Poly Fiber: 60lb requiring 35 gal of spraying material (9 coats)

 

Air Tech: 85lb requiring 15 gal of spraying material (5 coats) the heaviest as polyurethane paint is used.

 

The oratex covering I will be using is suitable for aircraft up to 600 kilo in weight - I am well under at 400 kilo.

 

Oratex weight per square yd is 3.24 oz.

 

Poly Fiber is 3.1 oz. plus all the coating.

 

Cheers.

 

 

[Head in the clouds]

Hi Planesmaker, my comments were based on information I found on Poly Fiber website where popular fabric finished weights were compared.They include Ceconite, Poly Fibre, Air Teck (and cotton / dope) systems.

Their report on final weights based on covering a complete Cub aircraft were as follows:

 

Ceconite: 60lb requiring 80 gal of spraying material (12 coats)

 

Poly Fiber: 60lb requiring 35 gal of spraying material (9 coats)

 

Air Tech: 85lb requiring 15 gal of spraying material (5 coats) the heaviest as polyurethane paint is used.

 

The oratex covering I will be using is suitable for aircraft up to 600 kilo in weight - I am well under at 400 kilo.

 

Oratex weight per square yd is 3.24 oz.

 

Poly Fiber is 3.1 oz. plus all the coating.

 

Cheers.

I think there must be something wrong with the information on the site you're quoting. 80US gals of spraying material is 320lt which would weigh something like 350kg - consider that it's one and a half 200lt drums of paint - you could almost paint a small battleship with that amount of paint. Also - last time I looked the price of the recommended Ceconite and Polyfiber coatings systems was about US$90/gal, so 80gal would cost about US$7200 plus freight!

 

For my project I'm expecting to use about 6lt of paint weighing about 6kg. Admittedly I won't be giving it 12 coats, just one coat of 2pak hi-build epoxy in fact, and the gloss and chalking prevention will be provided by a wax polish like car polish. Alternatively it could be given a thin coat of clear polyurethane over the epoxy.

 

I'm using epoxy because, as rotax618 said, many paints don't adhere well to the aluminium dust in silver dope, but epoxy does, and a single coat of epoxy is all that's required because epoxy is self priming, impervious, has a tough surface and the pigments cover well especially in the darker colours.

 

 

[Yenn]

When I did the Corby, the paint was in 2 boxes each containing 4 cans, which I believe were gallon cans. Some of the weight of paint evaporates and some gets blown away, so the whole weight of material does not end up on the plane. There could not be much weight on the wings as I could lift the complete wing with one hand. Probably couldn't do it now 15 years older, but it is still fairly light/ I will see if I can find the delivery dockets. One thing to be aware of is that Stitts chemicals cannot be shipped by air.