Electric Aircraft interest?

[winsor68]

I think you are asking the wrong audience.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

I think you are asking the wrong audience.

I did try the Volleyball Association Forums, wasn't much response there, and the Australian Goths and Vampire Slayers Forum was just down right abusive..

 

 

[kasper]

[MAP][/MAP]

 

Well the biplane would be nice and would appeal to more people but an extra set of wings adds extra fairings ect whereas a flying wing style is a more practical for your purpose.Personally I think the stats would sell it even if it is 'unconventional' after all what is not to like about a few hours of electric flight.

 

Just an extra silly idea that I was pondering, how hard would it be to have external hard points for a little internal combustion generator unit thingy. Obviously would need aerodynamic encasing but would have a small engine/generator with its own built in fuel tank, it could be run in flight or at remote strips that didn't have power supply. Yes it would be extra weight but it seems to me that this aircraft is already outside a 600kg limit so an extra 50kgs or so may give people an extra option and if it was a simple attach point it could easily be attached or removed as needed.

If you have an electric aircraft then why not go for range extenders like aluminium catalysing direct electric ? Product

But as he has already said optimised battery systems are not his core issue.

 

My interest would be for flying wing. I know lots of people balk at the design challenges but with a fixed mass airframe regardless of energy state your main operational constraints are reduced.

 

And pendulum stability can minimise some off point design load situations. And with the battery mass you can usefully use the battery mass

 

 

[nomadpete]

Bex, start a poll

 

E.g.:

 

A)

 

will you buy a radically different planform aircraft?

 

B)

 

Do you have the money, to prove you're not dreaming?

 

C)

 

Have you ever owned a plane?

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Bex, start a poll

Give him Vodka and Borscht, would probably work.

 

I have no need for a poll, the problems some flyers want solved are already well known and clear, the problem isn't even delivering the package, the problem is people realising that the package will resolve some of the issues for them (not all).

 

Not so many years ago if you held a poll for some new things called a smart phone and the internet, I'm sure the results would not have been favorable.

 

 

[Marty_d]

That's true... as I heard on a work conference recently, Henry Ford apparently was asked why he went ahead and built the Model T without asking people what they wanted.

 

He is reputed to have replied "If I asked people what they wanted, they would have asked for a faster horse."

 

 

[rgmwa]

Bex, surely you should simply pick the best tool for the job. If a lifting body works best for this technology then use that. What may come across as an unusual shape now may well be seen as mainstream for electric aircraft down the track. Something that looks like a space shuttle might even attract potential buyers of this technology. It's performance and utility that matters far more than shape in my view.

 

rgmwa

 

PS. It may also help keep you out of jail in 6 years time if you come up with something that doesn't look like a Cessna.

 

 

[aro]

Induced drag is the cost of staying in the air, and induced drag is directly related to wingspan.

 

A lifting body is high induced drag, so will always be at a disadvantage to longer span conventional designs when it comes to endurance.

 

 

[SDQDI]

[MAP][/MAP]If you have an electric aircraft then why not go for range extenders like aluminium catalysing direct electric ? Product

But as he has already said optimised battery systems are not his core issue.

 

My interest would be for flying wing. I know lots of people balk at the design challenges but with a fixed mass airframe regardless of energy state your main operational constraints are reduced.

 

And pendulum stability can minimise some off point design load situations. And with the battery mass you can usefully use the battery mass

The thing is if you had a standard generator setup it wouldn't just be a range extender, running on either Avgas or Mogas it would effectively be a recharge unit at any strip with an avgas supply. I think that would be fairly important until electrical recharge points became widespread.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Induced drag is the cost of staying in the air, and induced drag is directly related to wingspan.A lifting body is high induced drag, so will always be at a disadvantage to longer span conventional designs when it comes to endurance.

Does it trouble you that you are flying a far less than aerodynamically optimal high-wing with square edged fuse, flat floor, flat sides, flat screen plane with wing struts sticking out in the breeze everywhere creating high drag? How do you sleep at night, won't anybody think of the baby seals!

 

And now for some actual facts from a hands on genuine expert in the field, please read page 19 onwards ...

 

http://www.wainfan.com/pavreport.pdf

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

That was a really interesting report...it certainly is left field but the numbers are outstanding. This does pose the question though....why dont we see a lot of them around?

 

 

[bexrbetter]

..why dont we see a lot of them around?

Normal conservatism quite typical of aviation.

 

Not a very practical craft to get in and out of.

 

Some difficulties to transport or store.

 

Perceived visibility issues.

 

 

[rotax618]

Faceted aircraft can fly as shown in this Youtube video of an aircraft I designed some years ago, built and flown by Danny Leach. The video was taken on its maiden flight in blustery conditions, most of the landings were dead stick because we couldnt keep the engine running

 

 

 

[Marty_d]

I am fond of smaller Griffin concept ...

I love that Griffon Lionheart.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

I love that Griffon Lionheart.

Mmm, yes, the more feeling I get from people about anything unusual, not real good, the more I am inclined to stick with something they find more acceptable, and I am geared up for "conventional" currently, as well as my current structure foundation makes a bi-wing or tandem wing craft convenient.

 

I had previously been playing with tandem wings, but felt lack of acceptance first time out probably not a good idea.

 

 

 

[fly_tornado]

eeewww shades of the Eagle 150

 

 

[geoffreywh]

They were produced in WA for a while, Company went bust when they could not give them away. "An answer looking for a question" was quoted at the time. A mate of mine was test pilot ...He was not impressed.............Anyway, count me out of electric aircraft. I think that one of the parameters will be "must weigh under 50kgs." to get the whole thing under 600kgs...But I do wish designers well. Really.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

... I think that one of the parameters will be "must weigh under 50kgs." to get the whole thing under 600kgs..

I'm not understanding what's being said here, what must weigh "50kgs"?

 

I'll make a presumption you were referring to the Eagle 150, I hear different reports from great to poor flyer. They are used as trainers in Malaysia.

 

 

On the other hand, a number of similar Rutan planes fly very well, Quickies, Dragonflys etc.

 

 

[geoffreywh]

engine and battery ? guess 250 kgs, airframe same ? 1 pilot 1 passenger 50 each..... Anything by Rutan seems VG to Excellent

 

 

[onetrack]

Just my personal observations - but, taking a quantum leap from ICE power to 100% electric power, is barely do-able with current technology, IMO.

 

As nearly all progress today is incremental (given that amazing, quantum-leap discoveries such as lightweight batteries are a 1 in a billion chance) - then the general expectation of development progress is - crawl - then walk on all fours - then walk upright - then run.

 

In alignment with that constant and regular trend, it would be reasonable to expect that hybrid is the next step, before incremental technology improvements give us satisfactory electric drive aircraft.

 

By satisfactory, I mean gaining acceptance across a broad spectrum of society and buyers and end-users.

 

We already have Yamaha producing a 1Kva portable genset that weighs only 12kgs. I feel sure this could rapidly be improved upon.

 

Reducing battery requirements to the minimum and installing the latest technology ICE genset gives us a "satisfactory" performance hybrid.

 

 

[Birdseye]

Presumably ICE generator means internal combustion engine? When I Google it the only thing that comes up is something that generates ice cubes. How would running a gen set to charge a battery pack in flight work? Assuming that say 60hp (40 odd kw) is being drawn in cruise, then a similar input would surely be required or the battery depletion would only be slowed by some degree. Happy to hear if there is something that makes that equation more favourable.

 

With at least one car manufacturer claiming they will be all electric in a couple of years, maybe there are some quantum leaps coming in battery technology. True that road vehicles are less weight critical, but current battery cars (not hybrids) lose a lot of space to the cell storage.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Just my personal observations - but, taking a quantum leap from ICE power to 100% electric power, is barely do-able with current technology, IMO.

Ahh well you see that's where my philosophy comes in.

 

Currently the electric planes are taking a current model aircraft and electrifying it, maybe hope for some accidental major breakthrough one day - but a rather poor result as it stands today.

 

Whereas I am not pretending about tomorrow, taking what electric systems packages are available today, and putting a package around that.

 

Diametrically opposed thinking.

 

but current battery cars (not hybrids) lose a lot of space to the cell storage.

Yes, that's why a 'normal' planform isn't suitable.

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

I thought I saw something recently of a Rotax 912 with a elec motor on the front as a sort of hybrid. I think the hybrid way will be the next general offering in the market. Just a normal aircraft with a engine mod done. Again the weight will be a factor for the powerplant. But running a small engine to run a charger /supply to the batteries and using the electric motor for the drive. I havent seen the numbers though for the electric motors and what sort of current they require but most would end up being some sort of higher voltage motor like 200 or 400volts but thats a lot of batteries to series up...and as we all know you never get something for nothing...otherwise we would see these pertetual motors in operation

 

 

[turboplanner]

We still need a battery break-through to make cruising feasible; the break-through s have been announced for the last 30 years- from the mid '80s.

 

The upper surfaces of an aircraft, and the fact that it cruises in clear conditions make solat powers very attractive distance extender.

 

 

[Marty_d]

I thought I saw something recently of a Rotax 912 with a elec motor on the front as a sort of hybrid.

I think you mean these blokes... Axter Aerospace - El primer sistema híbrido del mundo para aviones their 30Kw add-on gives up to 20 minutes flying in the event of an engine failure, or you can add the electric boost on takeoff. They don't give the weight on their website, but the cost is €24,000 so not real cheap. Might be good for Jabirus...