Electric Aircraft interest?

[bexrbetter]

Ibut the cost is €24,000 so not real cheap.

Just ignore anything European, idiots.

 

A parallel setup like this is far easier and cheaper ...

 

 

Anyway, an electric design based around (but not the) a Rohr 2 would tick quite a few boxes ...

 

 

 

 

 

[nomadpete]

Bex,

 

Perhaps you might consider an incremental approach.

 

The major problem will be the conservative mindset of your potential buyers. They won't buy it just because it's GOOD. Such expenditures by individuals will always be heavily tainted by emotions.

 

Marketing will be a major expense, to Change their minds.

 

It may work better if you first prove your unconventional (I mean that in a positive sense) aircraft with a conventional motor, then after it is seen to be practical and 'cool' and practical, move to step two and market the electric powered version.

 

Although mass marketing has convinced most of the world that Coca version of Cola is not only cool, but worth paying extra for, I suspect that their marketing budget is VERY generous.

 

It would take such a massive marketing plan to get pilots to part with their cash to risk buying an unconventional (and some will call it strange just because it's different) aircraft powered by a radical motor (that's how their wife will see it)

 

I'm all in favor of your ambition

 

 

[bexrbetter]

The major problem will be the conservative mindset of your potential buyers.

It may work better if you first prove your unconventional (I mean that in a positive sense) aircraft with a conventional motor,

I am doing that now!

 

Number 1 is a boring, simple, safe, conservative aircraft, built to known parameters.

 

Number 2 is free for all.

 

 

[onetrack]

Birdseye - Yes, ICE is the general abbreviation for Internal Combustion Engine.

 

There is no "more favourable equation" when it comes to hybrid power. The ICE genset can only ever provide a portion of the power being drawn from the batteries under heavy battery drawdown conditions. However, that is all that is needed for range extension - range being one of the primary drawbacks for all electric propulsion systems.

 

There is major potential in electric systems, for the addition of super-capacitors to provide power bursts when needed - such as takeoff.

 

The major HP requirement/heavy battery drawdown is climb to cruise level. In cruise, the HP requirement is substantially reduced - and descent requires virtually no power, and can actually be used for battery regeneration.

 

Of course, the genset would also provide backup for total battery depletion, or in an emergency involving total battery failure.

 

Then there's those other nasty bugbears of battery power - recharge time, and recharging facilities.

 

An ICE-powered aircraft can refuel in minutes and be away again within 1/2 hr. No such speed with batteries - you're stuck on the ground until the charger reads all green - which can be a couple of hours or even more, depending on the charger type and ability.

 

I see the last bugbear as still a very real and threatening bugbear to electric propulsion takeup. Until someone produces a rapid-recharge system for batteries (and I believe several universities are working on promising areas here), then ICE's still have the upper hand at present.

 

 

[nomadpete]

Bex, you missed my point. Although your quick and easy kit has it's own merit, I proposed you get acceptance of your lifting body (or whatever) platform accepted and respected by your potential market before adding the electric option

 

 

[Marty_d]

Also...

 

Perhaps work out why the Facetmobile and the Rohr never became common aircraft. (I reckon the names are a big part...)

 

Obviously they're both superb ideas and have been well tested. I know the Rohr suffered a corporate finance problem, not sure why the Facetmobile was never produced commercially. The answers may help if you're planning to produce a non-standard design.

 

 

[APenNameAndThatA]

Yeah, I admit it. I cannot work out which bits of what you said were true and which were jokes. I admit that. But, I can guarantee you two things 1) if you think a facet mobile is a good platform for an electric airplane, you are way too dumb to develop an electric airplane, and 2) if you are smart enough to get yourself four car stealerships, you are too smart not to know about 1).

 

 

[bexrbetter]

The major HP requirement/heavy battery drawdown is climb to cruise level.

That's correct, and what this demonstration I did was all about, how much energy the recent VTOL personal Uber type craft will use up.

 

 

I have explained quite clearly why a lifting body/wing is generally suitable vessel for electric application, if not a specific model.

 

If you disagree, the common etiquette is to offer some foundation as to why lifting body/wing craft, or a specific model or type, would not be suitable. That of course would include a degree of reasoning, and even possibly a little eloquence.

 

 

[APenNameAndThatA]

There is no delicate way to put this. If you are explaining how you are going to develop an electric airplane and your first pic is of a facet mobile, you won't always get etiquette. Just the way it is. You might develop an electric airplane. You really might. But it will be kind of like how Al Gore invented the internet.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

There is no delicate way to put this..

What a surprise.

 

You are interrupting the general good nature and technical banter of this thread, change your approach or go away, thanks.

 

 

[rotax618]

One design which could utilise the compact compact size of electric propulsion would be the Zimmerman flying flapjack, I propose that 4 motors be placed along the leading edge of the wing , 2 at the tip would revolve contrary to the tip vortices, lowering loss from induced drag.

 

The slipstream from the props would provide a large proportion of the lift making it a superstol.

 

 

[adrian222]

[Old Koreelah]

Thanks for your very informative electric demo, Bex. Your electric car is impressive and far from the hyper light weight designs envisaged only a few years ago. If you get reasonable range from that overweight four wheeler, an aircraft designed for electric power should be practical.

 

I've been a China watcher for many decades and still can't get over their fantastic development. A generation or two ago that motorway might have been an ox track.

 

Do they have speed limits, or are you well known to the wallopers?

 

 

[Stephen J]

Borrowing from early corporate ventures into electric cars, perhaps using quick change battery pack assemblies in the form of detachable pods or underside strakes (close to the fuselage to reduce wing spar stress and drag). These might work adequately for a daytime (VFR) sports flyer who could carry multiple charged replacements in the same trailer that brought the craft to the field. While he is flying, the same trailer could have an onboard generator to recharge depleted packs.

 

 

[kasper]

Borrowing from early corporate ventures into electric cars, perhaps using quick change battery pack assemblies in the form of detachable pods or underside strakes (close to the fuselage to reduce wing spar stress and drag). These might work adequately for a daytime (VFR) sports flyer who could carry multiple charged replacements in the same trailer that brought the craft to the field. While he is flying, the same trailer could have an onboard generator to recharge depleted packs.

I'd not bother with trailers etc. take a look at modern RAAus planes - they live in hangars. Even with folding wings they live in them. Even most weightshift trikes seem to live fully rigged in hangars.

Hangars have huge roof space for solar. Any form of end to end electric system for early adopters is going to be idiologically driven so ICE generators are not suited whereas hangar solar is.

 

If you can get a battery back onboard that will do an hours real flight and quick change from solar in hangar you've got an early seller regardless of what it looks like.

 

Imo the unique look of a facet mobile type makes it a selling positive for early adopters.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

[ATTACH=full]51171[/ATTACH] One design which could utilise the compact compact size of electric propulsion would be the Zimmerman flying flapjack, I propose that 4 motors be placed along the leading edge of the wing , 2 at the tip would revolve contrary to the tip vortices, lowering loss from induced drag.The slipstream from the props would provide a large proportion of the lift making it a superstol.

props behind the wing increase lift

 

 

[kasper]

props behind the wing increase lift

How long do you want the landing gear to be?

At least the name would be a given - the electric daddy long legs

 

 

[fly_tornado]

has to be a highwing

 

 

[turboplanner]

Imo the unique look of a facet mobile type makes it a selling positive for early adopters.

The base starting point of marketing a new product is researching the demographics of the market, and particularly what the potential market will buy vs what they say they will buy.

Sometimes you can guess it; more often you can't but the potential customers often come up with pointers.

 

I've now been a part of, and studied what constitutes the RA community, in Australia, for about a decade, and it's interesting that it's in quite a different and more conservative space today than it was even a decade ago.

 

If you look at the products being sold, they are predominantly conventional configuration aircraft which are suited to local flights, and an occasional cross country adventure; the oddballs such as the flying inflatable boat, and the various extreme designs, have fallen away.

 

The Facet Mobile was presumably named from the facets of a gemstone, but has Oregami origins. This design, and flying wings, flying saucers etc, I would call close-coupled. They have the ability to pitch faster and more severely than something with a tail-plane a comfortable length away from the wing, able to apply much finer control.

 

However, there will always be people who go after the unique; you will often see one or two of these designs in RC clubs, usually flown by one of the most skillful operators, because it takes a high degree of skill to keep ahead of what this type of aircraft can do in an instant.

 

The demographic of RA pilots is people who have come from all walks of life, often late in life, and who "just want to fly". Often, they don't want to have to learn the principles of flight, they don't want to learn navigation, they don't want to learn radio, they don't want to learn Met, they just want to fly.

 

This points toward a conventional aircraft, designed to be as foolproof as possible.

 

Electric, as others have mentioned removes the in-flight variation in weight distribution, and also opens up the possibilities with a lighter motor, and power modules which can be shaped, to optimise weight distribution, and in some location, form the outer skin for cooling.

 

There is also a huge solar catchment area on the top and side surfaces; and that opens up the concept of an aircraft designed to take off, cruise, and descend on solar only, with batteries held in reserve for an emergency landing. Have a look at the history of the World Solar Challenge, a car race from Darwin to Adelaide, where 30 years ago, the first cars were streamliners with in some cases, push bike wheels, and they got faster until the NT 130 km/hr speed limit had to be built into the rules, and then upright seating was mandated to add wind resistance, and more lately solar panel area has had to be reduced to try to stop the cars running the full distance at the maximum NT/SA speed limits.

 

This is an ideal opportunity for thinking outside the square.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

A generation or two ago that motorway might have been an ox track.

it's not a motorway, it's not even a highway. It's quite typical of a lot of major secondary roads built recently.

 

China now has the most kms of Freeways in the World, and that's pure Freeways, America includes non-barriered two lane Highways with crossroads in their total for example.

 

And you want to see the bridges, holy smoke, even a local section of non-National freeway near me has a bridge that makes Westgate or Gateway look like kiddies toys. They don't even feel it's worth mentioning. I love bridge engineering/architecture.

 

120kmh is the National speed limit although it is generally un-policed other than speed cameras on large overhead gantries with big warning signs beforehand about every 10 to 20 kms apart. If you get pinged at say 130 then you get a $40 ticket and 2 points, if you get done at say 180kmh then you get a stern personal phone call! - ask me how I know

 

Generally people sit on 100 to 110, and it's very relaxing because you're not looking at your speedo all the time worrying about a hidden copper.

 

Round the city and towns people sit on around 40, can be annoying sometimes.

 

If anyone's interested, this is where I live, closer to around the 50 minutes mark but hard to see due to the rain. Our Province is a sea of that yellow flower from which rape seed oil (canola) is harvested twice a year, very spectacular. Some might enjoy all the tunnels from 10 minutes to around 30 minutes.

 

 

 

[onetrack]

And you want to see the bridges, holy smoke, even a local section of non-National freeway near me has a bridge that makes Westgate or Gateway look like kiddies toys

Despite the risk of thread subject derailment - I don't know how many of you, know about, or have seen, China's SLJ900 bridge-launching machine.I was blown away when I first saw this thing in action, because there is nothing like it anywhere else in the Western world - not even the Americans with the likes of R.G. LeTourneau and his "big ideas", have ever designed or even thought of a machine like this. This innovative piece of machinery speeds up bridge construction or rail-line formation, to an astonishing pace.

 

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Despite the risk of thread subject derailment - I don't know how many of you, know about, or have seen, China's SLJ900 bridge-launching machine.

Yup, seen the real thing plenty of times as they were building it through my area, massive machine, and that video is just up the road from my city. Those pylons average a million RMB each and the entire fast rail system throughout China is completely elevated. The money is mind boggling and our section of construction from Chengdu to Deyang was actually shut down for a year while they sorted out the theft of billions. One Official had an entire room full of cash.

 

 

[rotax618]

Low aspect ratio planforms are not pitch sensitive they are generally stall proof and spin resistant, because of their inherent stability, they usually have no dihederal or anhederal to make them more sensitive in the roll plane.

 

I suggest that turboplanner does some research before making those generalisations.

 

The Arups, Milt Hatfield's Little Birds, Vought FXU5 and V173, David Rowe's UFO, Wainfan's Facetmobile - all exhibited positive stability - all were stall resistant, and all were reported as pleasurable to fly.

 

The Helios and other electric powered aircraft have used the tractor configuration which provides the least turbulent air into the propellers.

 

Unless the thrust can be vectored down, prop slipstream over the wing from the front is the best way to use the wing shape to increase lift, low aspect aircraft have wide chords and therefore large reynolds numbers, the same circulation over a wide chord gives a proportionall greater increase in lift.

 

 

[jasmreid]

Not sure if the denizens here have seen this;

 

smartfish: SmartFish

 

and the hydrogen fuel cell version - the video is worth a look;

 

smartfish: Video

 

I have been watching these guys for ages but I don't know what's stopped their progress.

 

They are using technology from these guys in Singapore - might be worth a look bexrbetter?;

 

Horizon Fuel Cell Technologies

 

ABOUT US | HES ENERGY SYSTEMS

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Not sure if the denizens here have seen this;smartfish: SmartFish

Stunningly beautiful, wish I had the foundation for composites and skill sets to do something like that, I don't, so aluminium and rivets it is.