What Licence(s) to land at Alice Springs Airport

[APenNameAndThatA]

Hi

 

I can't work this one out, but I should be able to. Can I use a controlled airport with an Ra-Aus ticket with the appropriate endorsements? Do I need an RPL instead? Thanks! I was considering basing a plane at Alice Springs, which would have good security. I was considering basing it at Bond Springs, 20 km-ish away, an uncontrolled airport. It will have less security, I suppose, and but, I understand MIGHT have hangar space.

 

Thanks!

 

 

[Jaba-who]

At present, as I understand it, there are no "appropriate endorsements" to fly on an RAAus licence in controlled airspace.

 

You have to have an RPL with endorsements or a PPL or CPL etc. ( let's call it an appropriate GA licence for ease of writing.

 

You can fly an RAAus aircraft into controlled airspace provided you as the pilot have:

 

1. An RAAus certificate to entitle you to fly the aircraft

 

AND

 

2.an appropriate GA licence to entitle you to use the airspace

 

AND

 

3. The aircraft is equipped with a transponder and radio.

 

There is a loophole for you though.

 

Alice springs is only class C or D during tower hours 22:30Z to 08:30Z. Outside those hours it reverts to Class G so if you were able to restrict your flying in and out to outside those times you can do it on an RAAus licence.

 

 

[Ozfergie]

At present, as I understand it, there are no "appropriate endorsements" to fly on an RAAus licence in controlled airspace.You have to have an RPL with endorsements or a PPL or CPL etc. ( let's call it an appropriate GA licence for ease of writing.

 

You can fly an RAAus aircraft into controlled airspace provided you as the pilot have:

 

1. An RAAus certificate to entitle you to fly the aircraft

 

AND

 

2.an appropriate GA licence to entitle you to use the airspace

 

AND

 

3. The aircraft is equipped with a transponder and radio.

 

There is a loophole for you though.

 

Alice springs is only class C or D during tower hours 22:30Z to 08:30Z. Outside those hours it reverts to Class G so if you were able to restrict your flying in and out to outside those times you can do it on an RAAus licence.

I'm glad this came up - I have been meaning to ask for a while :

I got both my RA-aus Pilot cert and RPL at Camden - I now have the Ra-Aus cross country endo and have an a/c based at Cessnock.

 

Can I fly from Cessnock to Camden - essentially using the Ra-Aus then the RPL for the last 10nm? - or do I still have to do the RPL cross-county endo?

 

 

[coljones]

At present, as I understand it, there are no "appropriate endorsements" to fly on an RAAus licence in controlled airspace.You have to have an RPL with endorsements or a PPL or CPL etc. ( let's call it an appropriate GA licence for ease of writing.

 

You can fly an RAAus aircraft into controlled airspace provided you as the pilot have:

 

1. An RAAus certificate to entitle you to fly the aircraft

 

AND

 

2.an appropriate GA licence to entitle you to use the airspace

 

AND

 

3. The aircraft is equipped with a transponder and radio.

 

There is a loophole for you though.

 

Alice springs is only class C or D during tower hours 22:30Z to 08:30Z. Outside those hours it reverts to Class G so if you were able to restrict your flying in and out to outside those times you can do it on an RAAus licence.

you don't need a transponder for class D (or G)

 

 

[coljones]

I'm glad this came up - I have been meaning to ask for a while :I got both my RA-aus Pilot cert and RPL at Camden - I now have the Ra-Aus cross country endo and have an a/c based at Cessnock.

 

Can I fly from Cessnock to Camden - essentially using the Ra-Aus then the RPL for the last 10nm? - or do I still have to do the RPL cross-county endo?

You will need the RPC XC endo to fly the plane more than 25nm. You will need an RPL with Controlled airspace to get into Camden (controlled) airspace (the last 2 miles)

 

 

[Ozfergie]

You will need the RPC XC endo to fly the plane more than 25nm. You will need an RPL with Controlled airspace to get into Camden (controlled) airspace (the last 2 miles)

So I have the RPL with controlled airspace - can I not use the Raaus with XC endo to get there?

 

 

[Jaba-who]

you don't need a transponder for class D (or G)

yep, my bad!

And Alice springs is class d below various steps so you could go in and out in class d and remain outside of class c. But either way you would still not be able to do it on an RAAus licence except outside of tower hours.

 

 

[coljones]

So I have the RPL with controlled airspace - can I not use the Raaus with XC endo to get there?

You need an RPC to fly the RAA plane and an RAA XC to fly it more than 25nm AND you will need the RPL with airspace to get you into the Camden airspace.

 

 

[SSCBD]

You need an RPC to fly the RAA plane and an RAA XC to fly it more than 25nm AND you will need the RPL with airspace to get you into the Camden airspace.

Question with a GA PPL do you need and RAA cross country endorsement on a RAA cert in a RAA plane???

 

 

[Happyflyer]

Question with a GA PPL do you need and RAA cross country endorsement on a RAA cert in a RAA plane???

Yes. However RAAus will give the endorsement on the basis of your PPL. So, just a bit of paperwork and RAAus don't charge for that!

 

 

[coljones]

Yes. However RAAus will give the endorsement on the basis of your PPL. So, just a bit of paperwork and RAAus don't charge for that!

But it is much cheaper to get the RAA XC than an RPL XC. So RPC with XC to fly the plane AND an RPL (or higher) with Controlled airspace endo to get you into controlled airspace. You won't need an RPL XC endo.

 

 

[Brett]

Wouldn't it be nice if you could just obtain one pilots licence, then do endorsements as your flying suits or requires.

 

 

[facthunter]

One is a certificate. If you want it to be a licence , it can't really happen. You would replace it with THE licence and perhaps a U/L endorsement. Do you want that? You have choice now. I think if you want what a licence gives you get one via whatever path you choose. The RAAus way is a bit cheaper for your hours some of which are credited. People shouldn't have to do more if they only want what the RAAus cert provides. Nev

 

 

[SSCBD]

One is a certificate. If you want it to be a licence , it can't really happen. You would replace it with THE licence and perhaps a U/L endorsement. Do you want that? You have choice now. I think if you want what a licence gives you get one via whatever path you choose. The RAAus way is a bit cheaper for your hours some of which are credited. People shouldn't have to do more if they only want what the RAAus cert provides. Nev

NEV My comment from a GA point of view.

 

SO ... Why do I need a RAA licence at all if I have a say GA PPL and why cant I just get say an endorsement on RAA aircraft then I would not have to PAY RAA fees and which is a lower qualification standard (not being rude). This is stupid when one has already done the hard yards in GA.

 

ALSO - what do members really think of the performance of RAA as a whole. I see it seems the "one size fits all" with more costs which seem only going up. Yet the true base of ultralight flying eg (rag wing) is left as a poor cousin and not the base it started from.

 

Note. I am not any member of any other organisation except RAA and GA. So I am not pushing any agenda, other than money coming "out of my wallet for return of value".

 

To confuse the issue further - I believe in flying rag wing or carbon fibre sport aircraft and also GA twin stuff - but why is a simple two stroke drifter costing the same to fly a high end sport aircraft RAA cert fees as they are not demanding to fly as other high end sport aircraft.

 

We should have different costs in RAA certs for a start for example rag wing drifter types and pay as you go to for the more performance type GA aircraft and training. We also have retract and CSU which are really GA stuff. Some of these can be either GA or RAA today with sign of a pen.

 

My fear is that the grass roots flying is being buried and GA and RAA are blurred If we get 750 kg or 1500kg? or more then its even worse for us in RAA as then standards and maintenance costs with be more - (will they not?) And what about twins 750kg is about to let some clever guys produce twins that can fly in RAA and we have NOT MANY RAA CFI's who can train people or even fly to hand out CTA airspace endorsements and they will have to be trained to GA instructor standard. I expect that will cost a whole lot of money for them. However you can go to GA and get a twin endorsement I suppose and RAA with charge you a fee for it?.

 

So I ask again, what is the opinion of what value for money that RAA provides?

 

 

[facthunter]

Brett's question is a fair one. I've flown all sections and many types (been lucky it was at the right time and I did survive it) I'm not favouring one sector over another and don't look down on any group as being not "real" pilots. In fact the opposite I've always maintained that flying a small lightly wing loaded Plane requires a high degree of skill at actually physically flying it.

 

My biggest concern is with the RAAus /AUF.. How it started grew /formed. What it stands for and what it will become and will it survive in a recognisable form or be absorbed in the NEW GA as some sort of retarded poor cousin.. Have the members lost control (or interest). Voting numbers are very poor. That's bad sign. You are not under the control at top level by an AVIATION minister. You are run by the Minister for TRANSPORT and INFRASTUCTURE...Find sport flying in that title. Perhaps align yourself with the Institute of sport and do better (lol). He also admits to having little knowledge of Aviation matters, so that's not a very rosy picture.

 

The CASA don't want us. GA is not doing well. Self regulation is the go.. Recipe for disaster in a VERY highly competitive environment, even with Airlines.

 

About 12 years ago I thought we were up with the best in the world and even ahead. It's been chaos and uncertainty since then for Recreational Flyers, partly due to external factors a lot beyond our control and also our own lack of organisation and cohesion . The "I just want to fly" won't be good enough as a philosophy. It's too simplistic and just a faint hope.. The early minimum flyers made it happen Unwanted and ignored by the mainstream establishment. Perhaps we are at that stage now as well.. Affordable and Safe... Hey, That's a good idea. Forget established boundaries/divisions and get back to it. Nev

 

 

[Yenn]

What is the difference between a licence and a certificate? I see the words bandied around often and supposedly there is a difference, but even some of CASA documentation mentions recreational licences. In the USA there are no licences, all pilots have a certificate and the C of CFI means certificated.

 

 

[facthunter]

CFI Means "Chief" FI.

 

Licences are issued by governmental bodies as permission to carry out certain privileges related to the issue of that licence. eg Gun Licence, Fishing Licence.

 

Certificates are a statement of achievement issued by PRIVATE bodies. The two are often used as if there's no difference but that's not strictly correct. The CFI can stamp/ print (I certify B Goode has been instructed in Hand ..Propswinging on DHC1 aircraft) or the Surf Lifesaving Club can issue a certificate of "something" it chooses to acknowledge a certain skill level achieved in . Nev

 

 

[onetrack]

There 's a blurring of the normally-accepted difference between a licence and a certificate with RA-Aus, as this following page shows that an RA-Aus certificate is effectively a licence to legally carry out defined operations in airspace.

 

Normally, a simple certificate does not come with any authority to carry out any activity that requires authorisation by a ruling, Govt authority.

 

A certificate normally shows you have attended courses and completed training to a formalised level, giving you a recognised skill set.

 

Recreational Certificates vs. CASA issued Flight Crew Licences - RAAus

 

 

[facthunter]

Operating with the RAAus "certificate" is probably a dispensation against CASR's etc given under CASA's authority. The user gets the privileges of either (licence or Certificate) as applicable, if the conditions for issue are met. It makes no difference to the legality of the flight conducted if it's done under the rules applying to each. If you can legally fly your plane what's the difference? Nothing In a practical sense. In both cases you have a legal permit/ authority to fly within the limits of the privileges laid down. The certificate is cheaper to obtain, and has less knowledge required, less stringent medical and you can fly planes that meet simpler( lower) standards of construction, design and inspection etc but has less privileges, or more limitations which ever way you wish to read it. It's supposed to be a balance, and that's the way it is as I see it. You put's your money on your horse and run with it. If you don't find it suits you, you get a more expensive horse, or perhaps fiddle with the saddle and bridle. (Some adjustments) but stick to the low budget and safe. The "essence" of the movement. Nev

 

 

[Happyflyer]

Licence or Certificate, it's just words. Interestingly, the FAA in the US issues airman certificates and not licences. Any reasonable person would see that there is no practical reason for a PPL or CPL to be prohibited from flying a RAAus registered aircraft if they were properly endorsed and checked out. It's just that CASA and RAAus have strangled themselves with legislation and red tape. It just needs CASA to change CAO 95.55 etc to let PPL/CPL holders fly RAAus aircraft. Pilots wanting to fly RAAus aircraft on a PPL/CPL should still be required to be a member of RAAus so the rest don't have to pay more. Of course to be fair, RAAus certificate holders should be able to fly GA registered aircraft up to 600 kg mtow also.

 

Will it happen with the current clowns in charge. I don't think so.

 

 

[APenNameAndThatA]

You will need the RPC XC endo to fly the plane more than 25nm. You will need an RPL with Controlled airspace to get into Camden (controlled) airspace (the last 2 miles)

OOOOOhhhhhhhh. So, the cheapest way to do it is as follows.

 

1. Get a RPL (licence!)

 

2. Get an automatic Ra-Aus (certificate!)

 

3. Get endorsed for cross country with Ra-Aus

 

4. Fly XC on Ra-Aus and cross into Class D on the RPL.

 

I assume that there would not be a problem if the Class D extended further than 25 nm from the airport! And I assume it would not matter if the plane was registered VH or RA-Aus. Maybe aircraft should be able to have dual nationality, so long as they are not elected to the senate. Thank you so much, everybody!

 

 

[APenNameAndThatA]

8:00 am to 6:00 pm. I assume that the Zulu time is not affected by daylight saving! That could be a big, worldwide hassle. The US might nuke Iran an hour early.

 

 

[pmccarthy]

Zulus always attack earlier than you expect.

 

 

[kaz3g]

OOOOOhhhhhhhh.I assume that there would not be a problem if the Class D extended further than 25 nm from the airport! And I assume it would not matter if the plane was registered VH or RA-Aus. Maybe aircraft should be able to have dual nationality, so long as they are not elected to the senate. Thank you so much, everybody!

It's quite a long trip into YBAS from some of the VFR reporting points which are well outside of Class D, and it can be gusty and rough with thermal activity common even mid winter. Deep Well is about 34 NM out and Hugh River even further.

 

You will need to study the VTC carefully because there are a few traps (high spots) if you decide to come in low. Class D extends to 15 DME but remember you have Class C above. The tower girls and guys are really helpful and you can ask for a tour of their eyrie.

 

Kaz

 

 

[onetrack]

The last time I dropped by Alice Springs airport (Oct 2014, by road), it was around 18:00HRS, and the place was like a morgue!

 

You'd swear it was an abandoned airport!

 

I'd dropped by to (re)-check out something in the terminal (can't recall what it was now), and the place was utterly deserted, and bolted and barred up like Fort Knox!

 

I'd been through around 10:30HRS on a QF flight from SYD, and the difference between 10:30HRS and 18:00HRS was mind-boggling. 10:30HRS, it was a regular airport personnel movement maelstrom!

 

I have this vision of the airport knock-off bell going off at 17:00HRS, and everyone bolting out of the place like a Shire council yard at knock-off time!