So who can beat the dual training costs in Qld RAA $310 hour - Sling 2

[coljones]

Sure. We will just blindly pretend the jabiru engine doesn't actually have a reliability issue then it might just disappear. Put it this way, if even my non aviation friends know jabiru have an issue then it's probably an actual problem, not an imaginary issue.

Maybe your non aviation friends have been reading the Daily Telegraph/ Courier Mail or listening to Ray Hadley/Alan Jones. There are some dud mechanics out there whose work has given Jaribu a bad name. Maybe RAA/CASA should also indicate the owner and L2/LAME in their reports.

 

 

[planesmaker]

I would be reluctant to make such a sweeping statement blaming maintenance personell for jabiru's bad name

 

 

[kgwilson]

Any instructor who is charging $100.00 an hour for his time has a vastly over inflated opinion of his real worth in the world & anyone who pays this is nuts.

 

 

[djpacro]

You're paying $100/hr for the time the engine is running so time on the job is maybe twice that much plus, at a school, the instructor only gets a fraction of that.

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

That's partly why its a lot cheaper at Gawler. Volunteer instructors.

 

And they are pretty good at what they do. The gliding instructors are all volunteers too.

 

 

[djpacro]

And if subject to CASA's annual limit on flying hours it is not a lucrative salary either way.

 

 

[BusaKaine]

I fly with GoFly at YCDR and they are $295 dual and $195 private for the Sling 2. They don’t charge for briefings so that does help with some of the costs... it’s a very nice aerodrome as well.

 

 

[ian00798]

Any instructor who is charging $100.00 an hour for his time has a vastly over inflated opinion of his real worth in the world & anyone who pays this is nuts.

Yep. How dare somebody that has spent upwards of $60k actually want a return on their investment. That's pretty damn arrogant of them.

 

 

[ian00798]

And if subject to CASA's annual limit on flying hours it is not a lucrative salary either way.

I would argue a smart RA instructor would abide by these limitations too, if something went wrong a lawyer will absolutely tear you apart in court if they could argue that fatigue could have been a contributing factor

 

 

[Super Cub]

I'm glad I learnt to fly in the days where no one would consider charging for briefings.

 

 

[M61A1]

Yep. How dare somebody that has spent upwards of $60k actually want a return on their investment. That's pretty damn arrogant of them.

This is what we mean when we say we've turned into GA. This is rec flying people used to do it for fun. We used to be able to do it without training (maybe a bad idea), but people were dying, so they decided that we should have some instruction. Some were happy to instruct as recreation and continue flying for the love, others saw a business opportunity, and many of those found it hard to keep their head above water, so we got more regs to make more training mandatory and some pushed for aircraft that were more like the GA aircraft they flew before they lost their medical and required even more training......and here we are.

Believing you have to right turn rec flying into $$$, while running it into the ground, now that's arrogant.

 

 

[facthunter]

There is no doubt the operation and maintenance has a BIG effect on how well the Jabiru engines run. Some organisations have had little or no problems, and others a lot. CASA never took that road because they jumped and then had to justify their actions, fairly unconvincingly as one would expect when you know you must do something to be seen to be doing something. Like many, they didn't "get" the scene . OK it's not a "fit and forget" engine but believe me, NONE of them (Piston engines) are. They all vibrate, crack pipes bust engine mounts need props tightened and don't like being overheated or over revved and have their individual idiosynchrasies. The more you know and understand them the better your luck becomes. Also they don't really fix themselves. If it sounds different or has a new vibration or has lost a bit of power get on the ground and find out why. Nev

 

 

[fly_tornado]

I think that that high cost of acquiring these aircraft is the problem. I'm quite sure that there wouldn't be much profit.

500 hours on that airframe generates $155k, you can still sell the aircraft for 2/3 of what you paid for it. thats easy money

 

 

[facthunter]

That's a cursory analysis of an assumed situation, ft. There's a few fixed costs and running costs involved. that could be substantial..Nev

 

 

[fly_tornado]

the overheads are the same regardless of which aircraft you fly and the maintenance will be the close to the same on any new rotax engine.

 

 

[facthunter]

Where and how you operate has a big effect. You haven't even quantified them. I'm sure your bank manager would want a more fulsome summary before you get the loan. Nev

 

 

[poteroo]

Some of the advertised dual training rates are indeed eye-watering. I believe that its the capital cost of a nice 'Euro' LSA aircraft that is primarily driving prices. When you have to finance $120-$150,000, (who has cash for these scale purchases?), then the interest bill is crippling. If you could do it on interest only, think about even 10% on $120,000 = $12000 pa interest. Spread that over 300 hrs pa dual, and you have to find $40/hr just for interest. On an aircraft of this value, used for ab initio training, plus solo training, plus private hire - you are looking at perhaps $4500 pa for insurance = $15/hr. Then you have the ever increasing costs of hangarage, landing fees......all this before you put a bum-on-the-seat! My calcs say you have these overheads of near on $65-70/hr before consumables and instructor.

 

If you think we are struggling, then consider the GA school that decides to replace it's worn out C172 with a 'new' model, (S,R). The capital cost doubles. Avgas @ $2.20/L is the norm, and these new 172's still gobble their way thru 32-36LPH. They are between a rock & a hard place because there are no 2 seat GA aircraft being built - they really have to register an LSA into VH- in order to compete. Yes, you can do SIDS etc and keep the old ones flying, (12,000-20,000 TT and getting tired!), but that effectively doubles the capital cost of your aircraft. So an older 70's model C172 which you bought for $50k - has just ended up a $80k or higher asset. Depends on how you account for SIDS - 'maintenance' or 'capital' improvement?

 

However, when a prospective student does a TIF in my new, clean,'tight' Brumby, with all the bells & whistles fitted - they perceive value in our rates. We charge $220/hr dual, which is near $60-80/hr less than local GA schools charge for a veteran C150/152. Regardless of what schools charge, they have to offer value in terms of equipment, service,other stuff. Given that most RAAus schools include pre-flight and post flight briefs, plus a lot of theory assistance, plus more flight time/taxy time - they can't continue to do this on rates down near $150 dual. Much depends on whether the owner sees themselves as running a business, or running a 'hobby' operation to keep themselves satisfied in retirement. Once this generation hang up their wings - costs will rise across the industry.

 

happy days,

 

 

[kgwilson]

Yep. How dare somebody that has spent upwards of $60k actually want a return on their investment. That's pretty damn arrogant of them.

When I was paying $120.00 an hour to rent the club Archer II the cost with an instructor was $140. Flight briefing and debriefing was part of the cost and only hours from the Hobbs meter were charged. This was GA not RA. If schools are going to keep attracting new people to get into aviation then charging over $300 an hour for RA is not going to cut it. I did my RA conversion 18 months ago with some at $150 an hour & the balance at $200 an hour. I don't have a problem of someone wanting a ROI but if they price themselves out of the market the ROI will disappear.

 

 

[jetjr]

Maybe the Sling owner doesnt really want it to be hired unless earning well from it

 

Some good tax reasons to keep an expensive toy on a businesses books

 

 

[robinsm]

at 300 plus an hour I would never have started flying, would you not pay that and go GA in a 172, 182 etc. Seems the term recreational means rich...

 

 

[storchy neil]

fact cross hire of aircraft 85 dollars hr dry 2005 brand new aircraft plus

 

instructor 35 dollars hr plus

 

250 dollars for 14 hrs of BAK instruction

 

the aircraft was paid for in cash

 

taken off line by owner after president of aero club demanded 5 dollars per hr donation to club after club had bought there own aircraft neil

 

 

[M61A1]

500 hours on that airframe generates $155k, you can still sell the aircraft for 2/3 of what you paid for it. thats easy money

the overheads are the same regardless of which aircraft you fly and the maintenance will be the close to the same on any new rotax engine.

I don't think that it would be far off the mark to assume that they bought a (or cross hired someone's) $120+k aircraft on finance and would like it to pay for itself, add some hideously priced insurance. There won't be much of that $155k turnover left.

 

 

[facthunter]

Any decent RAAus type plane will cost say $140 K and you can still purchase older GA planes for about $40.K ea. If you had a few and buy carefully and a Lame who works for you on call and uses one ,you might operate more cheaply (except fuel) say 30/ hr more than a new RAAus plane. Having a taildragger on line is a risk, above conventional tri gear. The Gazelle with a good panel cost $74.K and that's a while back. My salary in the mid 60's got me about 2 hours flying each week if I spent the lot (just comparing values.) They say the average person's salary is about $70K ($1400/week) so that buys over 4 hours . Maybe the average person is not US. You can't really base a business on people doing things for you for nothing. Instructing maybe but forget servicing. They sign you off that's house losing stuff. 150/152's etc are fairly robust planes and will put up more airframe hours than most U/L's which have an unknown working life expectancy by comparison. Nev

 

 

[pmccarthy]

When I was learning you could wet hire a Cherokee for $16. Young persons wage about $60 per week. Bought about 4 hours then too.

 

 

[M61A1]

Any decent RAAus type plane will cost say $140 K Nev

That's where the problem is....the very belief that a "decent" aircraft costs that much.

Same problem as those screaming that they can't afford an inner city apartment/house in Melbourne or Sydney.