Fuel Hose

[skippydiesel]

Just a cautionary note:

 

I purchased the following fuel hose about 12 months ago. I use the hose to transfer fuel from "jerry" cans via an 12V electric pump into my aircraft ( I do not use it anywhere in the aircraft fuel delivery system). So the hose is only exposed to unleaded fuel intermittently, does not have to carry significant pressure and is kept indoors (not exposed to weathering/sunlight).

 

Despite the undemanding nature of its duty, the exterior of the hose is deteriorating at an alarming rate. It has developed a cracked & crumbly exterior for its full length. I have no idea what the interior is like (good thing I always use a filter funnel to catch any stray material)

 

I purchased the fuel hose from my local Peps automotive supply store.

 

Hose description:

 

Outback Australia Fuel Hose

 

SAE J30R7 9.5mm (3/4")

 

ID W/P 215 PSI

 

I CAN NOT RECOMMEND THIS HOSE FOR ANY PURPOSE (even for a lawn mower)

 

 

[aro]

Do you stick the hose in the jerry can to pump out the fuel? Not all hoses are rated to be immersed in fuel. The manufacturers generally expect the fuel to be on the inside. You probably want submersible fuel hose, which is designed to have fuel on the outside.

 

 

[onetrack]

Skippydiesel, thanks for the timely warning and clear information about a product that is obviously sub-standard and a danger to all users.

 

If I were you, I'd be immediately taking up the exceptionally poor quality of the fuel hose with the manufacturers agent or importer - which agent/importer appears to be Grommett Rubber. I'd say the product has been labelled illegally and does not meet the SAE standard stamped on it.

 

This is a serious issue that could lead to fatal fires in any number of fuel supply situations, or in item of equipment that utilises fuel hose.

 

You also need to contact your State Consumer Affairs office to initiate an "unsatisfactory and dangerous product" complaint which will be referred to the appropriate regulatory authority - which will then most likely issue a recall notice and advise the manufacturers agent or importer to cease selling the substandard and non-compliant hose.

 

A product that is advertised as conforming to SAE J30R7 is expected to meet stringent standards for quality, suitability and compatibility for the advertised use.

 

I'd suggest you seek out an equivalent hose supplied by Parker, as Parker products are products with a reputation for quality and for meeting the SAE standards advertised.

 

Automotive Fuel Hose - Series 395 SAE J30R7 | Parker NA

 

 

[skippydiesel]

Do you stick the hose in the jerry can to pump out the fuel? Not all hoses are rated to be immersed in fuel. The manufacturers generally expect the fuel to be on the inside. You probably want submersible fuel hose, which is designed to have fuel on the outside.

Hi Aro - true, but note I said for the full length (ie not just the bit that goes into the 20 L jerry). The full length is about 3 M with the pump at about the 1 m position. The only other times I have seen the exterior of a fuel hose like this, is when the hose is very old & may have been exposed to weathering for all/most of its service life.

 

It was cheap & convenient from my local Pep's but I wont be purchasing any more, even for this undemanding duty.

 

 

[onetrack]

I found a couple of interesting notes from Gates, re the SAE 30R7 standard hoses. It appears the SAE 30R7 standard is becoming obsolete due to advances in fuel refining, changes to emissions laws, and the ever-increasing number of fuel types and variations - plus a likely increase in the number and type of new fuel additives by refiners.

 

SAE 30R7 hose standards, and products reputedly meeting those standards, appear to be providing unsatisfactory results, as regards fuel hose use, in numbers that have provided a headache, to even Gates.

 

https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwir1cXh3qDVAhWEi7wKHQo8AT8QFgg-MAQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gates.com%2Foreilly%2Ftech_tips%2FPermeationResistantFuelLineHose.pdf&usg=AFQjCNFUgmCwiqwR-owz5wp2y8KUXQiS7A

 

 

[skippydiesel]

Thanks Onetrack - Despite my cheapo laps for the transfer hose - I have been a "Gates" hose man for quite a long time. So far the Gates hose for fuel and coolant (I use B Flood/Rotax supplied hose for oil) have not caused me even the slightest concern, looking and feeling as good as when I installed them 5 years earlier.

 

 

[onetrack]

Yep, can't beat Gates products in general. Unfortunately, there's a lot of opportunistic importers and agents who are happy to snap up cheap Chinese products and on-sell them, without any checks on quality, or checks on claims that they meet SAE standards.

 

I've gone through a lot of hoses in over 50 years of owning and repairing plant, equipment and vehicles - and I cannot ever recall having a fuel hose fail in short order, simply because the outer sheath was dipped in fuel.

 

The outer sheath of fuel hose needs to be UV and heat resistant, and fuel resistant, too.

 

12 mths is only the equivalent of the storage life of hose, in some sales outlets.

 

We all know that rubber, butyl rubber, and synthetic polymers do degrade fairly rapidly with age, heat, and the contact effects of hydrocarbon liquids - but I would be extremely upset if any rubber hose I purchased, showed signs of severe degradation within 3 years of purchase, regardless of the type of use.

 

Tyres are advised as having a useful lifespan of 6 years as a minimum, and tyres are a product that usually gets a pretty severe workout.

 

Below are some indications of shelf life of rubberised and polymer products. Note that these figures are shelf life, not service life.

 

Length of shelf life, and storage methods and conditions, can and do, adversely affect the product - and therefore the service life, of all rubberised and polymer products.

 

Shelf Life vs. Service Life in Rubber Products

 

 

[matt walsh]

Hi SD, I'm interested in your fuel transfer arrangement ie using an electric 12v pump mounted in your plane. I fly a Savannah which has high wings. I've contemplated various arrangements to replace standing on steps/ladder/chair filling wing tanks from 20l plastic containers. I could use 10 litre containers but these are normally not vented (other than through the spout) so slowish to discharge. I tried a rotary hand pump (Alco a brand approved for gasoline) and just OK and a bit cumbersome.

 

I would like the easy of a electric pump so would appreciate your setup advice,

 

thanks and cheers Matt Walsh, Penfield Victoria.

 

 

[skippydiesel]

Hi SD, I'm interested in your fuel transfer arrangement ie using an electric 12v pump mounted in your plane. I fly a Savannah which has high wings. I've contemplated various arrangements to replace standing on steps/ladder/chair filling wing tanks from 20l plastic containers. I could use 10 litre containers but these are normally not vented (other than through the spout) so slowish to discharge. I tried a rotary hand pump (Alco a brand approved for gasoline) and just OK and a bit cumbersome.I would like the easy of a electric pump so would appreciate your setup advice,

 

thanks and cheers Matt Walsh, Penfield Victoria.

Hi Matt - This is going to be a very round about answer as I feel it is important that you have as much information as I can supply (others may have more) before you commit to an electric petrol transfer pump.

 

I am sure you have already found out that quality petrol (note that I specified petrol) transfer pumps are very expensive and there is little choice out there.

 

Diesel, kerosene transfer pumps are relatively common and can be purchased quite cheaply.

 

The question(s) you have to ask is why?

 

I can only speculate as to the answers:

 

Petrol has a lower flash point than diesel/kero fuels.

 

Electric motors are a good source of sparks

 

Electric motors used to transfer low flash point fuels must be suitably shielded to prevent ignition/fire. High flash point fuels/liquids do not require the same degree of protection.

 

Petrol is a "dry" fluid, compared with diesel/kero so special seals are required for petrol transfer pumps.

 

Petrol tends to be more damaging to rubber & plastic type materials than diesel/kero so again special materials are required.

 

So petrol transfer pumps are built to a higher standard and are consequently much more expensive.

 

Now I figured that certain automotive sports must use quite high volume electric petrol transfer/boost pumps. 12 volt vane pumps are produced for the dragsters and other high powered petrol driven sports. These pumps do not deliver the volume of a dedicated petrol transfer pumps but are available at a fraction of the price of a proper pump.

 

The best pumps are made by Uncle Sam but his close relative Grandpa Chin makes "knock off" copies . The copies are unlikely to deliver their claimed output but at about $60-100 who's complaining. You will find these pumps in variose sites on the internet.

 

You will have to do your own plumbing & wiring.

 

A vane pump should be self priming but its not a bad idea to install a small foot/non return valve. In case of hose or pump shedding, always use a filter funnel or similar.

 

In my case I have added a ground wire & clip in an attempt to increase the safety magine and only fuel in a well vented area

 

 

[onetrack]

Skippydiesel has covered all the points pretty well - but there's one other important factor to consider when pumping petrol or avgas to an overhead tank - what are you going to do, to prevent an overflow situation?

 

Unless you have a system specifically designed to prevent an overflow when reaching the tanks capacity, you are risking an overflow every time.

 

An overflow can allow highly flammable fuel to spill into an area where it can't easily be removed - and the liquid and the fumes from any spill are also a major fire hazard, even if they don't spill into the inside of the aircraft.

 

When refuelling with highly flammable fuels, it is imperative that you have a fire-fighting plan of action in place, in the case of accidental fuel spill, and subsequent ignition from a distant ignition source.

 

Flammable fuel vapours travel a long way, and can be ignited from more than 20 metres away, under the right conditions.

 

Fuel pumping systems designed to pump flammable fuel into overhead tanks are designed specifically to be totally flame and spark-proof - and they often have shut-off mechanisms that prevent overflow spills.

 

Alternatively, a system with a handpiece fitted with a flow control valve, and operated by a person who is able to hold the handpiece in the tank and physically gauge when the fuel level is reaching the full level, is a lower-cost alternative - but this system also comes with a spill hazard, particularly if it's not possible to actually see the increasing fuel level.

 

Then there's the associated problem of having to stand on something to fill overhead tanks, if they are above head height.

 

The item you choose to stand on, to assist with refuelling must be stable, and able to allow the refueller to operate the refuelling system without strain, and also allow the operator to view the fuel level in the tank.

 

I'd suggest you have a discussion with a professional business that deals in refuelling systems, such as FES (link below).

 

Be aware that many refuelling systems designed for overhead pumping of fuel, specifically exclude the likes of petrol and avgas in their specs.

 

Fuel Transfer Pump Systems | Electric or Manual Fuel Transfer Pumps

 

 

[matt walsh]

SkippyDiesel, thanks for an excellent advice and I agree with your comments. Re your comment "I use the hose to transfer fuel from "jerry" cans via an 12V electric pump into my aircraft" and that your aircraft (Atec Zephyr) has low wings, I assume lift height capability isn't an issue with your pump choice. Can you detail me your set up and pump type please, perhaps it will work for me.

 

OneTrack, again excellent comments highlighting safety issues. My aim was to eliminate the lifting of containers onto overhead wing for refuelling my Savanah hence the pumping/ground transfer approach. I am happy to stand on safe/stable/earthed device and hold and direct the discharge hose, fitted with a cut off valve, into the tank thus addressing the possible overflow/spill issue. I checked the website included in your post and like most sites, the 12V DC pumps advertised are all for Diesel fuel only and not petrol.

 

I could use 10 litre containers but haven't sourced any that discharge quickly. Most have only one orifice and incorporate a breather into the spout. Weightwise its ok but when filling 100+ litres that's 10 containers worth and 10 ladder movements. Courtesy of my plane's former owner, I have fashioned a set up for a 20 litre container to sit and discharge into the wing tank. Very simple set up and not fast filling but I can easily monitor and cease filling to avoid overflow. Its an improvement over holding and pouring a 20 litre container. And NO I do not refuel in the hanger, this was an image taken during construction!!!

 

 

The other option maybe the Tanami brand compressed air system, see below. I'm unaware of its performance and would require changing to metal jerry containers. A 12V DC air pump for air supply could be positioned well away from fuelling operations.The Tanami devices cost about $80 from 4 WD accessory outlets ie ARRB.

 

 

My thought was a fuel pump on ground, inlet hose into container, outlet hose to tank filler. I perused 12V fuel pumps and Facet brand appears suitable and is solid state. BUT only 12 inch dry lift so probably wont transfer enough ( I assume flow decreases as lift height increases??). To reduce lift height , I could position the container on a stand and pump from their. So any thoughts Team Rec Flyers?

 

Thanks and appreciate the comments thus far, Matt Walsh

 

 

 

[SSCBD]

Why aren't people using hand rotary fuel pumps for high wing aircraft? weight is about 2.5 kg keep it in back of aircraft.

 

 

[matt walsh]

HI SSCBD, fair comment but my experience has been thats its awkward based on a set up of:

 

1. container or ground or platform near height to wing tank
    
    
   
2. rotary pump inserted into container and may not have a firm fit ie it just "sits" in the container filler hole.
    
    
   
3. hose then is inerted into wing filler hole or into Mr Funnel and held some how ie with your hand,
    
    
   
4. other hand then has to rotate pump handle
    
    
   
5. have to lean over tank hole to watch for overfilling/ spillage.
    
    
   

 

 

So yes a rotary hand pump is simple and electricity free, but requires coordination and fine movements!!

 

Also the quality rotary pumps capable of transferring petrol, and not only diesel or kero, such as those from Alemlube, tend to be heavish and with thick hoses thus making it more cumbersome. AQlso not sure about the 2kg weight as quoted mass below is 10kg although this includes the drum tubes which you could delete and get fittings to reduce to a hose fitting.

 

 

BUT I have just found another option from Alemlube, a very reputable and major company, on their website as below. I'll get a price this seems a worthwhile option. Quoted delivery rates up to 20 litres per min should be ok and definitely states device is suitable for petrol. This could be a winner!!

 

 

Chemical Syphon Drum Pump w w w . a l e m l u b e . c o m . a u w w w . a l e m l u b e . c o . n z The Alemlube 230 chemical syphon drum pump operates with a simple manual up and down piston type action. Capable of delivering up to 20 litres per minute, the 230 is suitable for the transfer of petrol, diesel fuel, kerosene, thinners, toluene, nitric acid 35%, hydrochloric acid 35%, sulphuric acid 35%, acetic acid 35%, other mild chemicals and is also suitable for use with water. Manufactured from high and low density polyethylene with the pick up tube measuring 850mm in length, the 230 syphon drum pump is non-corrosive, non-toxic and extremely light weight at approximately 430g. The flexible delivery hose is 1.2 metres in length and an adjustment knob on the top of the pump can be used to stop the syphoning process. PRODUCT SPECIFICATIONS, FEATURES AND BENEFITS Manual piston type pumping action Delivery rates of up to 20 L/min Suction pick up tube length of 850mm 2” drum bung adaptor Flexible delivery hose length of 1.2m Non corrosive, non toxic polyethylene construction Extremely light weight at 730g Suitable liquids: petrol, diesel fuel, kersone, thinners, nitric acid, toluene, hydrochloric acid, sulphric acid acetic acid and water CAUTION Not to be used with any liquids over 35ºC Not to be used for high viscosity industril liquids (eg. lubricant, heavy oil) Not to be used with concentrated acid or corrosive liquids Keep the pump out of direct sunlight ORDERING INFORMATION 230 Chemical Syphon Drum Pump PRODUCT INFORMATION October 2015 NS

 

 

[SSCBD]

HI SSCBD, fair comment but my experience has been thats its awkward based on a set up of:

 

1. container or ground or platform near height to wing tank
    
    
   
2. rotary pump inserted into container and may not have a firm fit ie it just "sits" in the container filler hole.
    
    
   
3. hose then is inerted into wing filler hole or into Mr Funnel and held some how ie with your hand,
    
    
   
4. other hand then has to rotate pump handle
    
    
   
5. have to lean over tank hole to watch for overfilling/ spillage.
    
    
   

 

 

So yes a rotary hand pump is simple and electricity free, but requires coordination and fine movements!!

 

Matt, after 30 years of filling high wing aircraft in the bush you get a bit smart on doing things. Not being rude but lifting 20 litre drum up on a high wing where you need a ladder or box etc. it not pleasant or feasible either on remote strips or away trips.

 

I have watched people fall over, hurt their backs trying to lift 20 litres or dropping drums and spilling fuel or the drum slides down the back and off the wing spilling fuel everywhere

 

1. So I have a rotary pump that pushes a half litre of fuel per 360 degree rotation. It weight 2.5 ish to 3 kg, never put it in a scale but around that weight, by the non scientific method of using the 3 litre milk hand weight comparison.

 

2. I have cut to length the excess filler tube and put a "SMALL METAL S HOOK" through the end of the hose that is then inserted into the wing filler hole and hooks INTO internal lip, so the hose it wont fall out and its fit and forget while refueling.

 

3. I have cut the bottom end tube off and slipped a (petrol proof) rubber tube to fit 20 litre drum in length. This takes the excess metal tube bulk and weight out of the pump also.

 

4. I have two free hands now just to hold the pump in the drum and wind away. - so easy.

 

5. As I know how much fuel I need after dipping the tanks BEFORE fueling I know how much I need and can count the turns if needed - so no overflow or spillage.

 

Mark - Don't take this a being rude, - but it works so well and is so simple why would I change the system. The little - S- hook on the filler end of the hose is the true answer to holding the tube filling over wing aircraft HANDS FREE and wont fall out.

 

 

[onetrack]

Matt, as regards the Facet fuel pump, the "12 inch dry lift" referred to, is the suction ability of the pump.

 

Therefore, "12 inch dry lift" means the pump will only prime itself if the suction line, or depth of container/tank, is no more than 12" long/deep.

 

Facet Purolator Cube Solid State 1.5 To 4.0 Psi Electric Fuel Pump With Hardware

 

Most of the electric fuel pumps have an inadequate fuel delivery rate, with a couple of litres a minute being typical.

 

In addition, these pumps all have poor suction capabilities, they are designed to be mounted close to fuel tanks and rarely higher than 300mm above the tank.

 

Pump Warehouse has a FloJet pump that may suit your requirements. It is designed for pumping many industrial chemicals, fresh or salt water, or products such as wine or whiskey.

 

The important part of this FloJet pump is that it uses Viton components, and Viton will provide highly satisfactory performance with petroleum fuels such as petrol and avgas.

 

Even better, this pump can be run dry without damage, it has an inbuilt pressure switch, and it pumps up to 8.3L/min under free-flow conditions.

 

2100-122 Flojet Pressure Pump 12v DC Duplex Series (Viton/Viton) 8.3 L/Min Max

 

 

[WayneL]

I use a Tanami "pump" with a cheap $20 electric air compressor. You can get the Tanami to suit the plastic 20 litre containers as well as the metal. I fitted a gas ball valve in the filler hose from the Tanami pump.

 

Wayne

 

 

[skippydiesel]

This is the sort of pump I am using - Its a Holley copy with a claimed output of 140gals/min (unlikely in a copy) It self primes and as it is a positive displacement pump I have little doubt it will pump from the ground up to a high wing tank. I use an on/off switch on a long lead, so that I can monitor the fuel level & control the pump. Have been using this system for a little over 12 months without any problems. Put Holley Pumps into Google & see what you can find (this one was advertised at $65.00)

 

 

 

[skippydiesel]

Sorry I think that should have been 140 galls/hour.

 

 

[matt walsh]

Dear Onetrack,SSCBD and Wayne,

 

 

 

Thanks for your respective inputs and suggestions. I like each system and reckon each will have their relative attractions and suppoprters

 

OneTrack, I wont argue with 30+ years in the scrub and will have a crack at setting my rotary pump up like yours, like the hook on discharge pipe. I assume you filter the fuel that goes into the container you insert pump to?? ie decant from one container into final container through a Mr Funnel??

 

SSCBD, But I am attracted to this simple compact 12vDC pump set up. Do you have any experience in these or knowledge of pilots using them??

 

Wayne, I am aware that Tanami has model for fitting plastic containers, Do you get a OK seal onto the container?? Also do you let the 12v air compressor (ie a small car type one??) just run and it turns off when enough pressure or do you have to frequently pressurizer the container??

 

Thanks heaps for your collective wisdom comments and suggestions. I really appreciate this input and your time in sharing,

 

Cheers Matt

 

 

[onetrack]

Matt, you have mixed up your replies to the original posters, but I can guess who you meant to refer to.

 

No, I have never seen this pump before, I have no experience of it, and I do not know of any pilots using one. You're on your own, if you try this pump!

 

There are reasonably-priced electric transfer pumps on eBay, but they may be too big for your requirements, they're designed for 200L drums.

 

This one appears to be Chinese, but it seems pretty robust.

 

12V Gasoline Petrol Fuel Transfer Pump Fuel Hose Nozzle

 

The American Fill-Rite is a quality product, and this ones on special!

 

Fill-Rite RD812NH 8 GPM 12V DC Portable Fuel Transfer Pump with Nozzle and Hose | eBay

 

 

[billy69]

SkippyDiesel, thanks for an excellent advice and I agree with your comments. Re your comment "I use the hose to transfer fuel from "jerry" cans via an 12V electric pump into my aircraft" and that your aircraft (Atec Zephyr) has low wings, I assume lift height capability isn't an issue with your pump choice. Can you detail me your set up and pump type please, perhaps it will work for me.OneTrack, again excellent comments highlighting safety issues. My aim was to eliminate the lifting of containers onto overhead wing for refuelling my Savanah hence the pumping/ground transfer approach. I am happy to stand on safe/stable/earthed device and hold and direct the discharge hose, fitted with a cut off valve, into the tank thus addressing the possible overflow/spill issue. I checked the website included in your post and like most sites, the 12V DC pumps advertised are all for Diesel fuel only and not petrol.

 

I could use 10 litre containers but haven't sourced any that discharge quickly. Most have only one orifice and incorporate a breather into the spout. Weightwise its ok but when filling 100+ litres that's 10 containers worth and 10 ladder movements. Courtesy of my plane's former owner, I have fashioned a set up for a 20 litre container to sit and discharge into the wing tank. Very simple set up and not fast filling but I can easily monitor and cease filling to avoid overflow. Its an improvement over holding and pouring a 20 litre container. And NO I do not refuel in the hanger, this was an image taken during construction!!!

 

[ATTACH=full]51398[/ATTACH]

 

The other option maybe the Tanami brand compressed air system, see below. I'm unaware of its performance and would require changing to metal jerry containers. A 12V DC air pump for air supply could be positioned well away from fuelling operations.The Tanami devices cost about $80 from 4 WD accessory outlets ie ARRB.

 

[ATTACH=full]51397[/ATTACH]

 

My thought was a fuel pump on ground, inlet hose into container, outlet hose to tank filler. I perused 12V fuel pumps and Facet brand appears suitable and is solid state. BUT only 12 inch dry lift so probably wont transfer enough ( I assume flow decreases as lift height increases??). To reduce lift height , I could position the container on a stand and pump from their. So any thoughts Team Rec Flyers?

 

Thanks and appreciate the comments thus far, Matt Walsh

 

You can get the Tanami system for different plastic jerry cans. I use one for yhe fuel safe type and added a stop cock valve at the end of the outlet to give control. Well worth the price and easy to use.

 

 

[WayneL]

I plug my air compressor into a 12v socket on my aircraft and leave it running while filling the top tank using the stop cock to control the fuel flow. Never really have the stop cock turned off and the compressor on long enough for the over pressure valve on the Tanami to blow off. I use the metal containers, don't have any sealing issues and don't think the plastic ones would either. My top tank is only 15 litres and takes about 2 minutes to fill. Before this system I was using 3 X 5 litre containers into the funnel, always seemed to spill some, now I don't spill any, very controllable.

 

Wayne

 

 

[WayneL]

HaHa.. my above post got sensored ....replace the **** with another four letter word for valve!

 

Wayne

 

 

[pmccarthy]

That was a poultry decision by the censor!

 

 

[skippydiesel]

Hi Onetrack - I do not disagree with your suggestions (fit for purpose etc) but would point out that:

 

Both pumps are going to suck a 20 litre "jerry" dry in seconds. Solution may be to pump from a larger supply but this comes with transportation & fuel "shelf life" issues.

 

The Fill-Rite sounds like a good deal (if cost & transport from US doesn't daunt) but the cost of both pumps far exceeds the cost of my home cobbled system which amounted to about $150 (less battery & charger).

 

With regard to the Tanami type fuel transfer systems : I suspect that there is little fine control of the fuel delivery ie can flow be safely interrupted completely at the operator's whim? I note WayneL uses a "ball valve" to achieve this but what then of the pressurised petrol container? (especially when the pressure is released - petroleum gas venting) Has the compressor stopped?