Fuel Hose

[Guest Hampden]

Hear - Hear Skippy - We used a 60 lt drum pump bowser for 2 stroke - terrific! Went to straight petrol and started ripping up pump shaft seals regularly (dry). Had someone try to build a large bowser with an electric pump. A fireman fried went through it and found the Chinese pump (an identical looking copy) was a bomb fuse waiting to be lit! There are 20lt drums used in car racing which you can invert and the spout only opens when the weight of the drum on the spout held in the tank concertinas it together. They are heavy to handle at height and you need the fill-space to avoid an overflow. No easy answers! For the moment we still use the 25yo 60 Lt drum with a rotary hand pump, it's inconvenient filling and changing drums and storing, but I like it

 

 

[onetrack]

Skippydiesel - Agreed, the fuel transfer systems I listed are a little too big for jerrycans, and the quantities of fuel required for refuelling the average ultralight

 

It seems that everyone is looking for a good, reliable, and safe, jerrycan fuel transfer system, and no-one has really come up with the perfect one yet.

 

The Tanami system is fairly satisfactory, but it still has its limitations.

 

One issue I would like to point out with petrol fuel transfer systems, when using electric pumps, is the high safety risk involved with simple alligator clips.

 

Alligator clips are quite an insecure method of attachment, and are prone to arcing with any accidental jerk - and you then have a major fuel ignition source.

 

A better system would involve a permanent and more secure electrical connection such as an Anderson plug, which can handle up to 50 amps draw.

 

 

[facthunter]

We all have this problem. Having a drum/ jerry can up on the wing is not on really. I've used a rotary pump but don't take it with me. It's too cumbersome.

 

Using a lot of your aircrafts battery isn't wise before a flight. By the time you start the engine it might be close to discharged.if the motor doesn't start easily. Some aircraft engine set-ups need electrical power to be reliable. Having leads and wires around a refuelling process isn't that safe either.

 

I've seen people fuel up using old wine cask inners. They won't damage your wing But....

 

Pressurising a jerry can with a tyre pump gives you good flow control with any reasonable shut off at the end of the hose. You would need about 5 lbs/sq in to fuel a highwing. and the modern ones have a built in battery that would do the job easily with only about 30 litres free air flow needed per jerry can. Nev

 

 

[onetrack]

There is another option, and it's lightweight, cheap and simple - but it does have pumping height limitations, due to its low electrical power.

 

That option is the simple, battery-powered Chinese jerrycan pump, powered by a couple of D size batteries.

 

These pumps are quite satisfactory for emptying jerrycans - but they have the drawback that they won't lift fuel any height, so you need to lift the jerrycan to near the same height as the fuel tank.

 

Trying to make these battery-powered pumps lift any height means the flow reduces to a trickle.

 

This solution does get away from the problem of having to balance jerrycans over a wing - but it brings its own problems of how to raise and hold the jerrycan up near wing height.

 

The pump I have linked to below, the seller claims is superior quality, because it's Korean, not Chinese.

 

BATTERY POWERED FUEL TRANSFER SIPHON PUMP Intake32x465mm 10Lpm Petrol Diesel Water Oil

 

 

[WayneL]

With regard to the Tanami type fuel transfer systems : I suspect that there is little fine control of the fuel delivery ie can flow be safely interrupted completely at the operator's whim? I note WayneL uses a "ball valve" to achieve this but what then of the pressurised petrol container? (especially when the pressure is released - petroleum gas venting) Has the compressor stopped?

My flow rate is not super fast so the valve is normally open fully giving a nice flow I guess around 5 to 7 lpm. I just watch when the tank is near full then turn off the tap, stand off the wheel and turn off the compressor. It is only a small compressor and I have plenty of time before it builds up enough pressure to blow the safety valve on the Tanami "pump". Not much air pressure is required to get the fuel to flow. Tried a bicycle pump first but need to pump every 15 sec or so to maintain the flow....stuff that...the cheap 12v compressor works for me, but then my single seater only carries 34 litres total so the lower flow rate is fine for my purpose.

Wayne

 

 

[jetboy]

Regarding the rubber fuel hose - I used Gates SAE30R7 on my older cars and Zenair when constructed in 2004. In both cases the hose cracked and stiffened externally and had to be replaced after about 5 yrs. I searched and found a USA made replacement brand DAYCO SAE30R7 hose from the local BNT auto supplies. This seems to be vastly better, beware like the original Gates hose the initial fuel drains from the sumps is discoloured brown for a while. I use Avgas. There is nothing wrong with the original hoses coming from the wing tanks, they came from Europe and still soft and clean.

 

Regarding high wing fueling from cans: I use a siphon (jiggler) hose and leave the can on a pad on the top of the wing. Not ideal but I get less fuel slosh than using the black funnels. But then I discovered the club Stork aircraft come with an inboard electic pump and a hose coupling on the belly for the purpose of sucking up the fuel to the wings. It takes a while but they just park a can under the plane, put a hose into it and turn on the pump. When the 20 ltrs is done the pump runs fast. They have an inline filter clear plastic there too. It could overfill if the container has more fuel than the tanks take.

 

I got a replacement belly drain for the gascolator on my 701 from ACS type 1250H

 

https://www.aircraftspruce.com/pdf/2017Individual/Cat17173.pdf

 

This one has a hose connection end and a lock-on for drain valve so I can do a similar refuel to the Storch, in my case the 12V fuel pump is part of the hose for the can, it works the same way.

 

I hardly ever use these methods because using Avgas I do it at the airfields. Should probably fit a grounding rod to the hose that goes in the can and connect to the airframe, for that matter my siphon hose should be static dissipative too.

 

Ralph

 

 

[skippydiesel]

You may be interested in a pic of my set up, usually mounted on my service trolley, with 12 V battery:

 

Note:

 

Ground wire (green) with clip

 

Extra long on/of switch wire with switch

 

Non return valve (silver) on bottom of inlet hose. Not essential as pump is self priming.

 

Relatively non restrictive inline filter. Again not necessary if you are using a filter funnel.

 

Holly "knock off" , positive displacement (good lift characteristics), vane petrol pump.

 

 

 

[matt walsh]

Afternoon SkippyDiesel ( whats your name as prefer to use it rather than a black hopper, if that's ok and fine if not!!)

 

Thanks for displaying your set up. What is the actual delivery rate ie how many minutes to empty a 20 litre container that's sitting on ground and discharge is to high wing tank??

 

Couple of thoughts on your wiring arrangement:

 

1. Would a single connector from pump wires to battery supply wires being preferable to alligator clips which can spark on connection ?? the cable from battery could be permanently attached using normal battery post terminals or just drill into post and screw and washer fixing.

 

2. Any concern with rocker switch being source of ignition ?

 

Will appreciate your response, thanks Matt Walsh

 

More research on electric pumps suggests few pumps approved/bulit for gasoline use: The following seem best of the lot and very reputable manufacturers.

 

 

 

The above Fill Rites should cost about $410-430 AUS delivered. Cant buy cheaper in Aus. This look a great set up, not cheap but would last forever and is certainly built for petrol transfer. The hoses woudl be rated for fuel transfer also ie static build up.

 

 

Above unit is designed for aviation fuel etc. Dearer than Fill Rite and is bare unit without hoses and nozzle ( add another $100). so likely to be say $650 AUD setup cost.

 

 

[pmccarthy]

Aeroflow black fuel pump and others similar can deliver about 2 gallons per minute. They are car fuel pumps, available in various flow rates. I have a high capacity pump in a Bentley Special but haven't tried it for fuelling a plane.

 

 

[matt walsh]

Hi pmccarthy,

 

thanks for this suggestion and pump is readily available from SuperCheap. With these pump types (essentially for cars where the inlet and outlet levels are similar, I am interested to know whether they will discharge to height ie 1-2 metres from ground to wing tank height. If the container has to be close to the wing filler hole, then no a real advantage over my "sit on the wing and gravity drain" arrangement, although not having to hoist 1 full 20 litre container on the wing is an advantage. I'm really looking for ground based fuelling arrangement.

 

Your thoughts on pumping capability of this one??

 

 

 

[skippydiesel]

Hi pmccarthy,thanks for this suggestion and pump is readily available from SuperCheap. With these pump types (essentially for cars where the inlet and outlet levels are similar, I am interested to know whether they will discharge to height ie 1-2 metres from ground to wing tank height. If the container has to be close to the wing filler hole, then no a real advantage over my "sit on the wing and gravity drain" arrangement, although not having to hoist 1 full 20 litre container on the wing is an advantage. I'm really looking for ground based fuelling arrangement.

Your thoughts on pumping capability of this one??

 

[ATTACH=full]51422[/ATTACH]

Hi Matt - These Holly style pumps are positive displacement (not centrifugal). This means that they will readily pump up to the wing tanks on a high wing aircraft. The higher the delivery point the more energy will be required, so have good condition well charged high capacity (plenty of amps) 12 V battery (deep cycle best) for the job. Flow rate will be a little reduced but nothing like a centrifugal which can, conceivably, just not deliver.

 

My set up is NOT a certified fuel transfer system. I have tried to reduce the chance of a spark ignition from my wiring/connections by using, sealed motor, heatshrink on all connections, new switch, only connecting/disconnecting battery befor/after fueling (never during). I try minimis air/fuel ratio by keeping exposed flow distances short (rich fuel) .

 

I am well & truly over hoisting jerry cans with the inevitable muscle strain & spillage - for me its a question of my physical wellbeing against a slightly elevated but real risk. Fueling is no longer a chore rather a relaxing part of my preflight ritual. My system works but dont expect to copy it without there being a risk - UP TO YOU.

 

 

[skippydiesel]

The knock off Hollys commonly claim 140 gals/hr (I think this is optimistic) so that's about 8.8L/min or 20 litres in 2.27mins.

 

An original Holly probably does a lot better and cost a heap more & you might just be luck with the performance of a Grandpa Chin copy from SuperCheap or elsewhere. I think mine cost about $80 with "bayonet" hose fittings. Then you have the hose - shortish for putting in the jerry and whatever length you need plus a bit to get to your fuel tanks, a couple of hose clamps to suit and if you wish a non return valve and a filter plus a switch (Jaycar do a fully enclosed button hold on switch) , earth clamp, battery, battery clamps (or alternative) and some high amp 12V wire (preferably suitably colour coded).

 

If you get 20 litres in 4 mins, I recon your doing okay. Much better than hoisting & sloping.

 

 

[matt walsh]

SD, thanks for more details of your setup and approx. flow rates. I'd be happy with 4-5 mins/20 litre container, I reckon 2-3 mins plus for current lifting and pouring direct to tank procedure.

 

Pmccarthy, thanks for suggested pump brand.

 

Wrapping it up, I think the electric options are the preferred options, either the budget priced SD/pmccarthy components or the more costly Fill Rite RD812NH proprietary pump. This options will utilize most of my existing kit and probably the simplest for me.

 

I do appreciate there are risks and note your mitigating measures. You are not responsible in any way for my actions, equipment and methods and what I do is my fully and completely my responsibility.

 

Thanks again all contributors.

 

 

[Guy s]

Tuff Jug 20L Blue Ripper Cap Fuel Can at MXstore

 

These are available in 10 and 20 ltrs and no problem filling my Savannah without a ladder and I've never had a overflow, spillage problem with these containers.

 

 

[matt walsh]

Hi Guy,

 

These containers are reputed to fill fast and anything that Geoff Ballard sells/promotes is good gear (basd on previous knowledge).

 

You say that you fill whilst standing on the ground. Some questions on your filling method if I may,

 

1. Do you filter the fuel using Mr Funnel etc when you fill your Tuff Jug or not bother,
    
    
   
2. When you hoist the TJ up to wing tank, do you sit the container on the filler lip/hole or hold it there above the filer hole. I think you have to push the nozzle against a firm surface to discharge. Your filling sounds easy and not awkward but I'm picturing me holding a 20litre canister well above my head and offset and thinking that doesn't sound comfortable or easy. You maybe taller than my 170cm stature and this would help.
    
    
   
3. Do you have several TJ's or just refill each time from a "standard" 20 litre container??
    
    
   

 

 

Appreciate your contribution to this subject and look forward to your reply. Thanks Matt Walsh

 

 

[Guy s]

Hi Matt,

 

Pouring from a normal 20ltr container into a funnel even up high on a ladder I had numerous spills and getting a bit of seepage around the Savannah fuel cap area and the inside wing section being open to the cabin create a strong fuel smell which was giving me the shits, especially when your about to go flying.

 

So thought there's gotta be a better way and there is

 

I got 1 20ltr and 2 10ltrs Tuff jug so can fill 40ltrs at a time. The TJ nozzles are design to fill farm bikes etc so easily fits inside the Savannah fuel inlet hole and so sits on the lip hole with the draining bit inside and u just let the weight of the fuel push down which opens up the nozzle and so you don't have to hold the weight of the container.

 

Once the fuel reaches up to the nozzle it stops air getting into the container so the fuel stops flowing and you just lift it off and it's really that easy and can highly recommend these TJ.

 

I have been using them for about 10 months and have never had a drop spilt, the 10ltrs are easy to lift and if you find the 20ltr a bit of a struggle a small ladder would definitely help.

 

I don't bother filtering the fuel but others will have other ideas I'm sure.

 

Cheers Guy.

 

 

[matt walsh]

Guy,

 

Do you use the standard TJ or with the extra adapter ie I am warming to this prouct.

 

To be clear, is the procedure with both sized containers:

 

Raise and invert TJ over wing filler hole, lower/insert spout into filler hoe, push TJ down, filling occurs until TJ empty or stops discharging because tank is full, raise and remove TJ all without a drop?? It sounds very appealing if this is correct?

 

Your confirmation of this process be appreciated. Thanks Matt

 

 

[Guy s]

All of the above is correct.

 

Just the standard Tj and I'm not sure what the extra adapter is and does.

 

 

[matt walsh]

Thanks Guy, I've just ordered a 10 litre TJ as a trial and if good for me then order 20 litre, shipping is free with MXstore. Excited!!!

 

Thanks again to all my other contributors on this topic, great ideas and comments which I've taken note of.

 

I maight even make a video of me demonstrating the TJ on my Savvy, I guerss I attach a movie file as for a image file?? I'll consult my tech savvy daughter!