Is this any good? Camguard Aviation Oil Additive.

[Bruce Tuncks]

Onetrack, you know more than the camguard guy at Narromine did. When he said that camguard had a lead-bromide scavenging component, I asked him about using an auto oil with camguard in a Jabiru. He clearly didn't have a clue. What do you think?

 

 

[facthunter]

I wouldn't be risking adding zinc. I've had exhaust valve guide seizing issues entirely attributed to the additive, on hot running cast iron aircooled heads. Use an oil with less zinc and problem disappears.

 

There are good aero oils out there that aren't expensive in straight viscosity or multi grade. If you have a gear reduction drive make sure the oil suits that as a lot of common oils aren't suitable. AS said roller rockers etc reduce the need for some anti scuffing additives in some motors. Corrosion resistant/ anti scuffing (camshaft) additives are in the formulation in the Shell W xxx PLUS and similar. Nev

 

 

[turboplanner]

I've got a 1988 Hilux here on the farm I have had it since new its got just over 500,000 klms on the clock.It just used ordinary Delo 500 oil without any additives.Now are people saying that I could do better with putting additives in my engine.So how many more klms will this extend the engine in the lux?

Yeah, you’ll get six million kilometres - trust me, I’m a farmer!

Japanes four cylinder engines have life cycles like your Hilux - wouldn’t surprise me if it gets to 800,000 - 1 million.

 

PLENTY of people haven’t made 30,000, and there are a million stories why, but missing scheduled oil changes, using the wrong oil, and adding unsuitable additives are right up there in the oil department.

 

If a manufacturer specifies a unique oil standard, or a very expensive oil, it’s usually to save his bacon, due to undersize galleries, high component loads or high temperatures - all design faults which weren’t picked up early enough.

 

An additive may have the sticking quality of superglue, but how is it for viscosity? If the engine is marginal on oil flow and the additive is high on viscosity some part of the engine is going to be starved for oil.

 

Rule 1 Use the oil recommended by the manufacturer - he knows the weak spots.

 

 

[bushcaddy105]

Late to read the thread but I have never used additives after a mate's experience in the early 1970's. Old Landcruiser, 135 F engine (yes, that old!) was starting to use oil. After seeing a demo of STP using the pressure-on-the-roller trick he added it to the engine. Next day the engine stopped with a bang. I got to strip it down to investigate. Short answer - one or more cam followers had seized which in turn reduced the camshaft to 3 pieces. It appeared that the gooey STP had blocked the small oil feed holes from the gallery which fed the followers. Co-incidence? I don't believe so, particularly since this was a high mileage engine which was well run in.

 

To this day I only use a recognized brand of oil of a grade as specified by the engine maker. Never had a problem. It's over-extending the change intervals that does the damage IMHO.

 

 

[Downunder]

The number 1, best thing anyone can do for an engine is very simple.

 

CHANGE THE OIL.

 

Whether at specified intervals or before hand. If the money spent on additives went towards increased oil changes and perhaps a higher quality oil (synthetic over mineral) your engine will live a long and prosperous life....

 

 

[onetrack]

Bruce - I personally think that the vast majority of oil additive floggers are big on glitzy presentations, and light on precise technical information.

 

I've just gone through the Camguard website and sales presentations, and I get the impression Camguard aren't a lot different to the majority of oil additive manufacturers, in that only they have the solution to engine problems.

 

Camguard do state their product contains 11 different additives designed to do all the things that regular oil additives are supposed to do - prevent oil polymerisation, prevent acid-formation, prevent wear in high-load areas, and protect seals.

 

They don't specifically itemise those 11 additives, nor outline their precise chemical interaction - obviously because "the chemical technology is beyond the average layman's understanding" - or, "the chemicals and processes are commercial-in-confidence".

 

Both of the above reasons are always used by the oil additive manufacturers. It's good for stopping intelligent people asking pointed questions - such as "don't the oil manufacturers already add all these additives, that you effectively claim are missing from oils?"

 

There are about 7 additives added to the base oil by manufacturers - typically, (soot) dispersants, detergents, oxidation inhibitors, anti-wear agents, anti-foaming agents, extreme-pressure additives, and viscosity index improvers.

 

All these additives are added in levels designed for them to be effective, for the length of operating time, or calendar time, as specified by the engine, or oil, manufacturer.

 

The problems with inadequate oil performance start with inadequate oil changes, aided by poor engine design, and exacerbated by operation and/or storage of the engine under extreme conditions.

 

When I owned and ran a large fleet of very expensive heavy equipment (where engine overhauls cost in excess of $100,000), Scheduled Oil Sampling was an important part of my operation.

 

SOS enables one to keep a very good eye on oil condition, any build up of oil contaminants and metals, any fuel dilution problems, and any other likely oil degradation potential.

 

In effect, additives such as Camguard are designed to counter poor operation, and poor storage conditions of engines, where the original oil additives have become degraded to the point where they are not working effectively, or have become overwhelmed by the build-up of acids, water, metal contaminants, and soot.

 

Put simply, using the recommended oil, and changing the oil at the specified operating hours or calendar times, is the most effective way of ensuring the oil is performing as expected, and as designed.

 

Owners of IC engines are well advised to ensure that the storage conditions of the engines when not being used, are benevolent, and not extreme - such as high humidity levels, and extreme temperature variations - and that the engines are run up to operating temperature on a regular basis, to ensure that surfaces that need an oil coating are not suffering from major oil drainage, leaving surfaces exposed - and that moisture build-up from condensation is driven from the engine by warming it up regularly.

 

A number of the additives in oil are relatively heavy, and the oil needs to be regularly stirred up to ensure their effective distribution, if the oil has been sitting for more than a month or two.

 

You can see this, if you have a container of new oil that has been left sitting for an extended period of time (say, 12 mths or more) - and when you empty the container, you will see what looks like fine dirt particles lying in the bottom of the container (bright yellow plastic oil containers are best for this).

 

These are the heavier additives that have descended to the bottom of the container - and for this reason, it pays to buy fresh oil, and not store it for excessively-long periods (when it can degrade, because engine oil is effectively a cocktail of active chemicals).

 

As regards the Camguard, I can't see where it has much use where engines are being run and stored properly, and good oil is being used, and oil changes are being carried out as per specifications. I would utilise SOS, ahead of additives such as Camguard.

 

 

[facthunter]

ED oils (extended drain) Have more chemicals to counter contamination. They are not superior lubricant. The more additives the less oil. Blow by, more likely in high hours engines causes oil contamination so wear rates increase.. Oil testing saves money in fleets where every dollar counts as you can run the oil longer, but there's a cost factor in that.. Short trips cause more contamination as there's more wear before the engine reaches normal temperature. Taxi's do more than 3 times the normal mileage a private use vehicle does without particular attention to oil changes and fancy quality oil. Tailor you oil changes to the type of use you do. Dust and short trips change more often. Make sure the thermostat is working at the right range for the engine so it heats up quickly. Nev

 

 

[jetjr]

Camgard seems to have some engine manufacturer support and the guy was connected to large aero engine busines in US.

 

Possibly Wouldnt know what a Jabiru was and certainly wouldnt want discuss auto oil usage in an aircraft.

 

As we arent talking about heavy diesel engines either, but light air cooled aero engine, many doing sub 100 hrs per year, this could change the benefits of an additive.

 

The claim that engine makers know best really is similar to claims that additives are no good. They cant know how engine is used and how often.

 

Clogged rings and rusty bores is a big killer of jabiru engines.

 

Aero engine oils (and engines) are products from very old technology, I would hope additive tecnology would have moved along since W100 was formulated.

 

He did make the point that Lyco and Conti oil change intervals were too long at 50 hrs, Jab say 25 and id be surprised if much work was done tailoring oil selection to the engine. Especially considering a choice of one or two grades named as ok for aero engine usage.

 

Id be keen to see what results are in Jabirus as there are plenty using Camgaurd on other makes. Some prettty capable L2 runnng other aero oil types with great results too.

 

 

[facthunter]

Excess Zinc Phosphates have been proven to cause the exhaust guide seizing I experienced with certain air cooled motorcycle engines. Engine top strip and correction was required each time. Valves hit each other and/or the piston crown. I made many enquiries at the time and found I was not alone with problems with this particular oil brand and type. One oil company has admitted they used too much zinc back a while. Extra Additives are generally NOT recommended by ANY oil company I know of. Modern engine oils that are made for car engines with 4 light valves in each cylinder and generally roller followers and have reduced additives of some kinds for reasons of pollution and catalytic converter function.

 

W-100 PLUS is a supplied AIRCRAFT Engine blend with camshaft protection suitable initially for Lycoming camshaft and follower problems in service generally with engines not used frequently. Naturally those benefits are not confined to Lycoming engines.

 

Due to most of the oil being prevented from remaining on the bores by effective oil rings, protection of steel bores from rusting is not effective completely if to much extent at all and Correct inhibiting procedures are supposed to be used by users of aero engines if they remain unused for very long. It should still be explained on the CASA website. I've never seen any one with a Jabiru do it and it's not done generally in GA either as often as it should be either so don't be surprised if your bores corrode and ring grooves get jammed with rust particles

 

Anyhow I wouldn't be adding anything to an aero oil without the approval of the Oil producer and the engine maker. I've ALWAYS recommended the PLUS aero oils to do what the additive says it does. Nev

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

Nev, it is still a mystery to me why air-cooled motorcycles do not use an oil much more like an aero engine oil.

 

I know I asked before about my Yamaha farm-bike and accept that it works much less hard than the Jabiru engine, but I still reckon it has more in common with the aero engine than a car one, and maybe I should be using aero oil in the bike.

 

 

[facthunter]

We do have trouble getting oils suitable for aircooled motorcycle engines particularly those older ones with cast Iron heads which can run very hot particularly when pulling a side car. Its a small section of the whole market and doesn't get well served. Some people DO run aero engine oils in these bikes. You probably could do a lot worse and I have used and recommended them myself with no problems. Nev

 

 

[onetrack]

They cant know how engine is used and how often

Not entirely true. Engine manufacturers do quite a bit of testing and research and get regular reports from owners, dealers and R&M shops, on engine problems - and most manufacturers do take that information on board and act accordingly.

Aircraft engine manufacturers do understand that many aircraft engines stand around for extended periods without use - but the owner is obliged to take protective measures, too - not just blame the manufacturer for corrosion that is preventable.

 

I would hope additive tecnology would have moved along since W100 was formulated.

Oil technology is advancing continuously, and engine development is restricted only by the current oil technology. Oils of today are vastly different from even 25 years ago.

The oil company researchers continually discover new and better additives with increased stability, better properties, and increased abilities over previous additives, and these discoveries allow for major advances in engine technology.

 

 

[jetjr]

If you were talking about auto engine makers and auto engine oils id have no disagreement

 

We are talking Jabiru and aero oils

 

Theres essentially just three grades of oil, one was recommended then after problems taken from manuals, other is clearly branded “not for use in Jabiru engines”

 

How could oil makers alter formulation without expensive testing and i assume certification or acceptance from old aero engine makers?

 

As far as recieving user info and reviewing specs.........we are discussing Rod and Jabiru here.

 

In their defence they have been focussing on other issues for some years now and hopefully making progress.

 

 

[facthunter]

Newer formulations are not specified/listed for older motorcycles as I guess they are not updated on the oil specs by the manufacturer who generally concentrates their support on new models. You are a bit on your own, therefore, in that instance. You COULD be using a superseded oil when better is available. ( IF your "contact" at a reputable oil company is high enough up the technology chain and is ready to listen fully to your requirements you may get good advice there.) Lube match doesn't work well generally for non normal usage and a lot there is to do with promoting their latest new product.

 

It could also go the other way with later products. Eg where an additive is not permitted by law due some pollution effect or effect on a catalytic converter life and is left out of later formulations. Fuel. lead additives, supercharging and reduction gears require special consideration. Then you have multi grades and synthetics to consider. There's usually enough info about in the Industry for "normal" aero engine operators to make an educated/informed choice/ With others like Rotax the maker is your source of information basically paying regard to the fact that sometimes a formulation is altered in different countries under the same Lubricant manufacturer marketing name. Nev

 

 

[jetjr]

Anyone have updates on Camgard being used?

 

Particularly in Jabirus?

 

Some good reports on Moreys I was hearing, but at reduced rate. Any info on this?

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Moreys (Lucas) Vs STP oil additive. Run dry, the Moreys engine lasted 20 minutes, 2 times the STP engine's 10 minutes.

 

 

 

[facthunter]

Hardly very scientific. Too many variables that would have nothing to do with the oil . Nev

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Hardly very scientific. Too many variables that would have nothing to do with the oil . Nev

Yeah, real world tests, phttt, he would have been far better off arguing about it in a forum somewhere with a bunch of experts.

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

I wonder how an engine with no additives would have gone.

 

Personally. I reckon the case for adding Moreys is pretty good.

 

 

[skippydiesel]

I have said it before & now once again -

 

Many additives work AT A PRICE.

 

Some dont work and some can do damage AT THE SAME or even HIGHER PRICE.

 

Most reviews come to the same conclusions:

 

• Additives are not cost effective.
   
   
  
• The type of people /personalities that use them, tend toward OCD - which, in this context, means they are obsessive about maintenance - which in turn means it is impossible to separate the higher standards of maintenance these people aspire to/practice from the potential benefits of the additive.
   
   
  
• The best care of an engine, is to operate it according to and within the manufacturer's specifications, which includes observing the correct maintenance intervals and using the service items (lubricants coolants,filters,plugs, etc) recommended.
   
   
  

 

 

I advise my fellow OCD personalities to try and think rationally - accept the fact that engine developers spend mega millions on research. If they thought for a moment that an additive(s) would cost effectively enhance the service performance/longevity of their engine, would they not incorporate its use into their maintenance regime - of course they would.

 

There endeth the lesson.

 

 

[jetjr]

“engine developers spend mega millions on research“

 

Are we still talkng about Jabiru?

 

Customers are the engine developers.

 

If theres an additive that helps prolong engines life, Id suggest it would be cheap at double the current cost of Camgard

 

We arent talking cheap auto engines

 

 

[facthunter]

Running an engine dry of oil is hardly a valid test of suitability for all conditions over the life of the engine. No engine can run without oil for long as the oil also cools the parts. Inevitably some parts melt together as the both big ends did in this instance, causing rod failure. Variations in original fit surface finish could easily affect a variation. A single test means little . It would have to be repeated numerous times to be valid. and consider other possible adverse aspects of the additive. What did oil discolouration in the combustion chambers have to do with anything relevant to the lack of oil?. Bahdahl ,Redex etc have all come and gone. Most of that extra performance was from antifriction additives with products like bahdahl usually zinc phosphorus of which an excess can cause valve guide seizure. (sticking exhaust valves) and top ring groove deposits. Jabiru have had instances of that and it's more likely in aircooled motors, so I wouldn't do things to make it more likely. I doubt the engine or oil manufacturers won't want you fiddling with additives on the" lets try it" theory. Aero engine oils meet a world wide standard . Most other stuff has little assurance of much at all.. EP Gear oil might have given a similar apparent advantage. on that test . Nev

 

 

[biggles]

Running an engine dry of oil is hardly a valid test of suitability for all conditions over the life of the engine. No engine can run without oil for long as the oil also cools the parts. Inevitably some parts melt together as the both big ends did in this instance, causing rod failure. Variations in original fit surface finish could easily affect a variation. A single test means little . It would have to be repeated numerous times to be valid. and consider other possible adverse aspects of the additive. What did oil discolouration in the combustion chambers have to do with anything relevant to the lack of oil?. Bahdahl ,Redex etc have all come and gone. Most of that extra performance was from antifriction additives with products like bahdahl usually zinc phosphorus of which an excess can cause valve guide seizure. (sticking exhaust valves) and top ring groove deposits. Jabiru have had instances of that and it's more likely in aircooled motors, so I wouldn't do things to make it more likely. I doubt the engine or oil manufacturers won't want you fiddling with additives on the" lets try it" theory. Aero engine oils meet a world wide standard . Most other stuff has little assurance of much at all.. EP Gear oil might have given a similar apparent advantage. on that test . Nev

............ or maybe Snake Oil .... Bob

 

 

[onetrack]

The impressive shows of engines being run with the oil drained after the additive is added, are always done at idle speed or a fast idle - and certainly not under load.

 

A big end bearing can run happily for a long time at low speed and low bearing loads - but that's a whole lot different scenario to losing all your oil when your engine is pulling high revs, and under moderate to heavy load.

 

In that case, no oil additive of any type will prevent the bearing that's running with no oil supply, from seizing very rapidly.

 

There are also very few engine oil manufacturers who would agree with adding aftermarket additives to try and improve their oils performance.

 

One of the reasons is that engine oil is a cocktail of basically unstable, reactive chemical additives, all designed to do a certain job.

 

Some (original) additives in the engine oil are designed to chemically react with acids to neutralise them.

 

Other original additives are designed to react with, and coat surfaces with a film that prevents oil oxidation (and therefore, oil breakdown).

 

There are original additives that are corrosion-preventing chemicals, designed to attack rust formation and prevent metal oxidation.

 

As such, when you add an aftermarket additive to engine oil, you have no way of knowing what the chemical reaction outcome will be, because you never get a precise list of the actual chemicals in the aftermarket additive (because it's always a "trade secret" of course!), and you have no way of knowing if those chemicals in the additive are reacting with, and possibly neutralising the "good" additives in the original oil.

 

No aftermarket additive producer could possibly know the full list of chemical additives added to the base stock oil, by every engine oil producer, to make the final engine oil product.

 

Thus, they have no way of knowing if their product is 100% compatible with every engine oil produced.

 

In addition, the oil companies are constantly finding and adding new additives that provide improved performance, thus changing the game as they go.

 

 

[jetjr]

“the oil companies are constantly finding and adding new additives that provide improved performance, thus changing the game as they go.”

 

Cant be, the aviation oils are somehow certified remember

 

Id expect W100 today will be the same as a century ago. W100+ is an upgrade..........with an additive.

 

Certification kills competition and development

 

Aero engine here makers have a choice of just three oils, two are considered not suitable. How much effort is put into the other one by its owners in terms of R and D? Pretty sure they closed their AU tech office down.

 

There are owners having lots of problems and looking for any way to reduce them. Manufacturer has solved all problems with a new model engine but that doesnt help many.

 

The slick marketing or facts does play into their minds for sure but if theres some fact there is it worth it to try.

 

In addition some of the best Jabiru maintainers around are using additives in both fuel and oil with good results. Regulation limits this application to homebuilts of course.