Spin Training

[SSCBD]

With some LSA aircraft existing and coming in the market, it is only in the Pilot in Command best interest and that of say the unsuspecting PAX to have a spin endorsement ,is only common sense in my opinion.

 

The higher performance we get with LSA aircraft the higher performance of the pilot is needed. That means higher training level for these aircraft.

 

My question is if you can afford and buy a Ferrari or Porsche type aircraft why would you not do an advanced driving course to upgrade your skills.

 

We are getting a very wide range of performance from rag wing to carbon fibre types that we now cover under RAA and its only going to get bigger with weight increases.

 

Also have you noticed some of the short arms to the tail and the small size of rudder and elevator on these top end aircraft.

 

And some of these aircraft on the market now can cruise over 120 to 130 kts is becoming common.

 

Higher speed means something has been traded for it!

 

I have flown most of these and some run out of elevators authority on landing to my satisfaction in my opinion. Which can result in a medium to heavy landing.

 

Simple rule of thumb I have, is the faster they fly and come on the market, you will need to have a higher attention to flying speed control and they may bite you.

 

Its not like the old days where you could fly a drifter or thruster and just point it at the ground and land. You now have some clean aircraft and weight behind you - even if it is only 600k that can float way down the runway ( try a short grass strip and see the sweat develop on some pilots with these aircraft.

 

I believe and have forgotten who at this point of time, that some manufactures are using a "type of fowler flap" to help and slow the stall speed and landing distance.

 

So if you want to be a pilot with a PAX and have safety in mind with these high performance types why would you not get the training and spin recovery experience.

 

To me its only common sense that when you increase performance of a LSA aircraft you fly YOU have to upgraded to fly it (in my humble opinion).

 

 

[facthunter]

Maybe using an oval circuit might help this situation. Nev

 

 

[Soleair]

I struggle to understand the reluctance of some to explore developed spin recovery under instruction in a suitable aircraft. As has been said, stick forward & picking up the dropped wing with rudder rather than aileron soon becomes automatic. And after the initial 'fright factor', it is a great boost to confidence knowing both that the aircraft can recover from an extreme condition, & how to do so.

 

I was taught developed spins in a Cessna 152 for PPL, & later, much more frequently, in an ASK 13 glider. Once you get used to them, it's actually quite good fun. Certainly teaches you not to panic. I have no idea how I'd react in a real life low level incipient spin entry. But I believe I'm better placed to recover quickly having had such training than without it.

 

Bruce

 

 

[turboplanner]

Maybe using an oval circuit might help this situation. Nev

Not on your life, the non-standard patterns, like rhomboids make it unsafe enough as it is.

I saw one guy this morning catch up to another on downwind, have the lightbulb moment realisation that he was going to fast to stay behind, so did a U turn outwards and disappeared upwind on the downwind leg; where he went from there, I didn't see.

 

 

[Bruce Robbins]

Maybe using an oval circuit might help this situation. Nev

Hallelujah Brother.

 

If not Oval circuit, at least the Downwind to Final turn.

 

I believe the FAA are evaluating the proposal, or if not are being lobbied to.

 

 

[Roundsounds]

I struggle to understand the reluctance of some to explore developed spin recovery under instruction in a suitable aircraft. As has been said, stick forward & picking up the dropped wing with rudder rather than aileron soon becomes automatic. And after the initial 'fright factor', it is a great boost to confidence knowing both that the aircraft can recover from an extreme condition, & how to do so.I was taught developed spins in a Cessna 152 for PPL, & later, much more frequently, in an ASK 13 glider. Once you get used to them, it's actually quite good fun. Certainly teaches you not to panic. I have no idea how I'd react in a real life low level incipient spin entry. But I believe I'm better placed to recover quickly having had such training than without it.

 

Bruce

I don't have an issue with spin training, I've issued many spin and aerobatic endorsements and it'd be in my financial interests to make it mandatory. As I've said earlier it's about appropriate abinitio training to recognise the control inputs that lead up to a spin in the first place and avoiding a spin developing that will save lives. If you've got the skills to recover from an inadvertent spin entry at low level your skills and knowledge wouldn't have allowed you to spin in the first place.

 

 

[Roundsounds]

Not on your life, the non-standard patterns, like rhomboids make it unsafe enough as it is.I saw one guy this morning catch up to another on downwind, have the lightbulb moment realisation that he was going to fast to stay behind, so did a U turn outwards and disappeared upwind on the downwind leg; where he went from there, I didn't see.

Don't get me started on circuit procedures!!

 

I teach height, heading, spacing and speed as a work cycle in the circuit. If spacing from traffic ain't ok, adjust your speed or as a last resort widen the downwind or delay your base turn.

 

Chucking a youie or orbiting in the circuit shows a complete disregard for regs and safety.

 

 

[Yenn]

Can't be bothered with spin training. Oh why do go around training or engine failure training and even worse side slipping?

 

Lets make it really easy and do away with any training for something that seldom happens. It is so nice to sit back dumb and happy in the cockpit.

 

Have a look at the accident details on the RAAus website to see what standard of training we are really getting.

 

 

[SSCBD]

Yenn - Agree with training standards - lemmings over a cliff.

 

 

[poteroo]

If you've got the skills to recover from an inadvertent spin entry at low level your skills and knowledge wouldn't have allowed you to spin in the first place.

I seriously doubt anyone can recover from a botched base-2-final turn @ 500ft - once it stalls you can, but if a spin develops then probably not. Agree with your assertion that anyone who can fly the aircraft in balance, and who avoids loading up the wing - will likely not become a candidate for a stall/spin accident. I think we're talking too much about recovery, and not enough about prevention in this thread. happy days,

 

 

[Roundsounds]

Can't be bothered with spin training. Oh why do go around training or engine failure training and even worse side slipping?Lets make it really easy and do away with any training for something that seldom happens. It is so nice to sit back dumb and happy in the cockpit.

Have a look at the accident details on the RAAus website to see what standard of training we are really getting.

If you're referring to my comments, you've obviously missed my point and not read them in full.

 

 

[Gibbo]

Ah yes I remember a phrase from one of my instructors. 'Incipient spin'. Much like claytons.

 

 

[facthunter]

People are still doing it regularly (not the same people though) Some quite experienced people too. I don't think it's ok to just go along with the status quo. The stalls we teach are not the ones that will kill you. Holding altitude with power off and more backstick with speed washing off and controls getting mushy and a bit of buffeting and slight nose drop allows you to cross off stalls. That's BS you know. Nev

 

 

[APenNameAndThatA]

Well, I have only about 25 hrs in total, but here is my $0.02.

 

The thing to practice is stalling turning from base to final. Except at 4000 ft. Turning from base to final is where the aircraft is closest to stalling and where one is tempted to do extra to get the runway lined up and might even be most tempted to show off. My limited understanding is that practicing stalls doing a 30 to 45 degree bank means that you are practicing spins. The value in doing this would not be recovery from the spin, because you can't. The value in this would recognising when it is happening, and making sure you prevent it from happening.

 

The flipside of this is that aircraft reviewers always bang on about how docile an aircraft's stall is. Who cares? The problem will be if the aircraft stalls when it is not level. They should shut up, because people might think that a stall while turning will also be "docile". That is not a good thing to tell people.

 

 

[APenNameAndThatA]

Spin recovery training is only useful for pilots completing an aerobatic endorsement. Should a non aerobatic pilot inadvertently enter a spin, they will have little chance of recovering. Having said that, spin awareness training is a must - all pilots should learn the likely causes of inadvertent spin entry and taken to that point just prior to entry and taught to recover at that point. The most common stall / spin accidents occur in the circuit and usually below 1000' AGL, a competent aerobatic pilot would be doing well to recover from that height let alone a non aerobatic pilot. Slow flight / stall recovery training is generally very poorly taught in current flight training.

You got three agrees, but your comment just seems dumb. Spin. Opposite rudder. Stick forward. Wait. Pull out. I'm pretty sure that you can do that without spin training, particularly in an aircraft that did not snap into rapid spins but spun more reluctantly, like a C172. Actually, I might even put your theory to the test - see if I can recover from a spin before any training at the start of my spin training.

 

Also, there is training and there is training. You could do a lot of theory and visualisation and mental rehearsal, and even move the aircraft control, and practice on a simulator without ever actually spinning an actual aircraft.

 

 

[APenNameAndThatA]

I have started a new thread on this as I think to further the discussion on the thread that it is currently being discussed on is inappropriate. But this is obviously a topic that does require further discussion.I read in several forums here about the need for spin training.

 

Now within RAA are aircraft are neither approved to spin nor probably in most cases tested for it.

 

In the normal day to day flying that we as RAA Certificate holders do why is there a need for spin training.

 

It is unlikely that I would have completed my training if there was a requirement to spin.

 

I do no go on amusement rides that can turn me upside down and as such would not go on a joyflight that could do the same. In fact I have never been in an aircraft that can do aerobatics and am not likely to do so.

 

So is the "perceived" requirement to learn to spin/recover based on the possibility that I may one day inadvertently enter into a spin in an aircraft not suited to it nor tested to it. If that is the case is there some huge hole in my training that could allow me to do something I am not ready for, or is it only likely to happen if I start pushing the envelope.

 

This may seem obvious to some, but to me it seems totally contradictory.

Well, I froze at the controls of a 4WD once, and I don't want that to happen in an airplane. Plus, I'm scared of heights. So I think I HAVE to do spin training, IMHO.

 

 

[facthunter]

I wouldn't recommend teaching yourself spinning. A sim is nothing like the real thing either so avoid that.

 

Do you know the difference between a spin and a spiral? Are you sure which way you are spinning.? Are you spinning upside down?.

 

IF YOU deliberately put the aircraft into a spin (or whatever) you gave yourself some clues so that's sort of cheating, so How about we have you under the hood and do a few steep turns both ways then set it into a spiral and pull some back stick then give you the controls? in a spiral you have a few seconds to take recovery action or the plane may build up enough speed and 'G' to cause structural damage whereas if you are spinning, (Autorotating) there is no structural problems till you hit the ground.

 

The point I'm making is you must positively identify spin or spiral, before you apply recovery actions. You can also get into a spiral recovering from a spin or you can enter an inverted spin. Different aircraft may have totally different spin characteristics. Some fall out of a spin if you don't hold them in. Others may flatten out and be quite difficult or impossible to get out of a spin if the CofG is too far rearwards for instance or the wrong technique is applied. Know what you don't know. Nev

 

 

[Geoff13]

So many different opinions to my initial concerns.

 

If currency is so important in most things aviation related, then can a couple of hours spin training prepare me for what may happen down the track?

 

So far the comments appear to raise more questions than answers.

 

What worries me most is the inconsistency of the answers.

 

 

[Roundsounds]

As has been said, stick forward & picking up the dropped wing with rudder rather than aileron soon becomes automatic. And after the initial 'fright factor', it is a great boost to confidence knowing both that the aircraft can recover from an extreme condition, & how to do so.

You don't pick up a wing with rudder, you simply prevent yaw with rudder and level the wings with coordinated use of aileron and rudder after the stall recovery. Picking up a wing with rudder can lead to a spin in the opposite direction.

 

 

[Roundsounds]

Spin. Opposite rudder. Stick forward. Wait. Pull out. I'm pretty sure that you can do that without spin training, particularly in an aircraft that did not snap into rapid spins but spun more reluctantly, like a C172. Actually, I might even put your theory to the test - see if I can recover from a spin before any training at the start of my spin training..

Good luck with that, in some aircraft you'd find yourself in an inverted spin with control inputs you've described.

A docile old C172 will behave very differently with 4 POB and some baggage (ie CofG nearer the aft limit)

 

Like I've said earlier - proper training required, seems like you've got just enough knowledge to be dangerous.

 

 

[Happyflyer]

So many different opinions to my initial concerns.If currency is so important in most things aviation related, then can a couple of hours spin training prepare me for what may happen down the track?

So far the comments appear to raise more questions than answers.

 

What worries me most is the inconsistency of the answers.

Like every thing in aviation, lots of experts offering well meant advice. My two cents worth. Do the spin / unusual attitude training, Hopefully you will realise recovery when this happens unexpectedly will result in lots of altitude lost and you will be motivated to fly in balance and well within a safe flight envelope. Prevention is easier that the cure.

 

 

[facthunter]

If we keep things basic and simple what has to be done is STOP the turn (with full opposite rudder) and unstall the wings by pitching the plane forward.( Or trying to.) There are variables though. A lot of the rudder may be masked by the lowered elevators if you push forward too much too quickly so it's ineffective at stopping the turn. If the elevators suddenly work and you have them too far forward the plane will spin inverted and it will do that so fast you won't know what happened unless you are aware of the possibility. The ailerons are not doing much at all as there's little forward speed but some planes like into spin aileron to aid recovery. Starting to get complex eh?

 

SO.... Lets just forget training your self. You need to know each planes spin characteristics and that should have been done by a TEST pilot and documented if the planes certified for spinning, Any instructor who trains you in spinning a particular aircraft should be fully conversant with its quirks and know the recommended method of recovery for that plane specifically and IF the plane has known difficulties He /she should have emergency ways of recovering up his sleeve if things go wrong and plenty of height to do all this safely. Don't learn to fly by any information provided on this or similar forums. Check it out with a competent instructor. You might have a few questions to get answers to for your own sake. Would I have liked to have flown my flying career without the training I got in this area.? No way and I probably would not have survived. Nev

 

 

[Head in the clouds]

So many different opinions to my initial concerns.If currency is so important in most things aviation related, then can a couple of hours spin training prepare me for what may happen down the track?

So far the comments appear to raise more questions than answers.

 

What worries me most is the inconsistency of the answers.

Currency is very important in many respects but just as you'd find it hard or perhaps impossible to land a plane if you'd never had any training at all, you'd probably agree that if you don't fly for the next ten years and then had to land a plane for some reason, you'd be likely to make an acceptable job of it.

Even though they might have done their spin training, very few people regularly practice it physically but it doesn't stop us practicing it mentally.

 

I wrote a bit about it on another thread a while ago, the methods I developed for myself might be helpful for some people.

 

 

[turboplanner]

So many different opinions to my initial concerns.If currency is so important in most things aviation related, then can a couple of hours spin training prepare me for what may happen down the track?

So far the comments appear to raise more questions than answers.

 

What worries me most is the inconsistency of the answers.

From the section of aviation where spins are banned (and for good reason), this shouldn't be surprising.

What concerns me is that forums tend to lead to "training by correspondence" where one person is not fully comprehending what another is saying, and the other person is talking about a different phase of the action, but the first person is going to go up and have a stab at it not knowing what the delicacy of touch should be, what the attitude of the aircraft should be, what that particular aircraft will do etc.

 

There's a good reason training someone to fly is carried out in person in the same aircraft at the same time.

 

 

[frank marriott]

I find it simply amazing how some individuals believe they have expert knowledge without having been exposed to the real thing.

 

I tried to debate "kicking it around with rudder" with an individual who professed to hold ultimate knowledge, sadly unintentionally demonstrated nose up, on/or near the stall, and "kicking it around with rudder" with the predictable result -

 

some people need to realise what they can get away with on a keyboard or around a table often doesn't reflect reality.