Spin Training

[turboplanner]

You got three agrees, but your comment just seems dumb. Spin. Opposite rudder. Stick forward. Wait. Pull out. I'm pretty sure that you can do that without spin training, particularly in an aircraft that did not snap into rapid spins but spun more reluctantly, like a C172. Actually, I might even put your theory to the test - see if I can recover from a spin before any training at the start of my spin training.Also, there is training and there is training. You could do a lot of theory and visualisation and mental rehearsal, and even move the aircraft control, and practice on a simulator without ever actually spinning an actual aircraft.

I think you might be trying to BS us Pen, freezing in a 4WD?, but just in case you're not, at 25 hours, you're not really ready for the discussion you're having with yourself. Maybe you have finished your BAK ahead of time; if you haven't, you'll know more by the end.

 

Believe it or not a 172 or a Cherokee can be violent enough to fall out of the sky in a power on stall if you screw it up, and the aircraft which stuns me with the amount of pilots who've drilled the earth is the C152. Always have respect for your aircraft; they only defy gravity within their envelope.

 

 

[spacesailor]

One more.

 

If an aircraft landing at 40knts, is at it's stall speed, because it's a mandated 40knt design,

 

doesn't that make for a dangerous situation.

 

spacesailor

 

 

[facthunter]

There's 2 ways of finding out things ."The sensible and economic and safe way" from someone wise who knows and the HARD and scary way of finding out by your mistakes. where you won't live long enough to make them all.. Good Books are about based on knowledge often gained the hard way saving you many of the risks associated with trying your luck from a base of ignorance.

 

You can safely stall a plane from a very low height as it doesn't fall far. Also near the ground all planes fly in ground effect to some extent so it can stay airborne at stall speed or perhaps a bit under. This can also work on take off where you are OK as long as you remain in ground effect. If you attempt to climb out of it without gaining some extra margin of speed you may well come to grief .Nev

 

 

[frank marriott]

One more.If an aircraft landing at 40knts, is at it's stall speed, because it's a mandated 40knt design,

 

doesn't that make for a dangerous situation.

 

spacesailor

Are you confusing "approach" with "stall" speeds? There is no mandated approach speed - use POH.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

the best thing about spin training is seeing the rate of descent, how fast it can develop in a steep turn, and because of that experience it has made me fly the last part of my circuits so much more carefully. It has also made me recognise a lot quicker just what my plane is trying to tell me. I believe that at least in my own plane I recognise the onset of stalls much quicker because I have flown it a lot more in and around the stall and that is a direct result of the aerobatic endorsement.

It's a sobering experience to learn just how close to the ragged edge you've been flying.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

... have you noticed some of the short arms to the tail and the small size of rudder and elevator on these top end aircraft.And some of these aircraft on the market now can cruise over 120 to 130 kts is becoming common...

Some of the plastic fantastics claim a stall speed in the mid to high thirties. With their tiny elevator and rudder, how is the average ultralight-trained pilot going to maintain control at that speed?

 

 

[Head in the clouds]

Some of the plastic fantastics claim a stall speed in the mid to high thirties. With their tiny elevator and rudder, how is the average ultralight-trained pilot going to maintain control at that speed?

Yes, they do claim that and perfectly legitimately too ... since their claim is IAS which is the only reference a pilot has. However if one was to eliminate the pitot error at high AoA the ASI would tell a very different story.

Also - their stall speed claim can be a theoretical one based on the lift coefficient of the flapped 2D airfoil but in reality only half the wing is flapped and the actual built surface condition will never match the graphs, let alone taking into account washout, tip losses, air turbulence etc ...

 

Then there's the fact that although their theoretical stall speed might calculate as 37kts or whatever, in reality their tail volume coefficient is way too small to be able to actually stall the main plane when power-off and they get around that by saying it's a built-in safety feature ...

 

So ... in practice the only way to get anywhere near the published stall speed numbers of most LSAs is to stall it fully flapped at full power using the strong propwash to give the elevator sufficient authority.

 

That results in a stall at an extremely high nose angle and a resultant 45 degree inverted hammerhead when the flow attachment breaks violently.

 

Most LSA harnesses aren't suited for that and the likeliness of head injury should be borne in mind if you'd like to test the honesty of the average toy aircraft manufacturer's claims. I say 'toy' because virtually all of these LSA types are 'self certified' by their own designer/manufacturer to comply with ASTMs rather than being FAR23 compliant. If they complied with FAR23 their handling would be a different story - much more kindly - though they might still get away with the instrument error aspect.

 

Other claims that are similarly suspect are those of amateur fishermen ;-)

 

 

[Soleair]

You don't pick up a wing with rudder, you simply prevent yaw with rudder and level the wings with coordinated use of aileron and rudder after the stall recovery. Picking up a wing with rudder can lead to a spin in the opposite direction.

In a K13, I was taught to enter a spin with ailerons & rudder neutral, and stick back until the break. At which point, one wing would drop. If the spin was allowed to develop, the procedure was opposite rudder, stick forward to unstall, recover using coordinated controls.

 

But at the incipient spin, when the wing starts to drop, it was stressed to use only the rudder, keeping the ailerons centralised. This always worked to prevent the wing dropping further and a spin developing.

 

So, either my terminology is incorrect, or my memory fails me. Now my recall is pretty crap at times, but I have a solid sense of doing just as I said - picking up a wing with rudder, not aileron.

 

 

[facthunter]

I doubt your recollecton is too far off but if you are deliberately entering a spin you will have decided which direction you intend to spin, so your entry technique is completely different. A deliberate entry will try to get the plane in a stable spin as quickly as possible so you employ techniques that make it happen as fast as possible so the height loss from entry to recovery will be predictable and the number of turns will not be more than intended. If you don't know how quickly it happens and recovers you don't have a clue what you commencement height has to be to recover at a safe height.

 

The idea of picking up a dropped wing with positive opposite rudder shouldn't be taken as a cure all as if you overdo it you are in more trouble. The problem is angle of attack so fixing that is essential and NOT using the aileron at all (Keep it central) till you are unstalled is good advice. For a pilot ,using the aileron in the normal sense is very instinctive as is pulling the stick all the way back when the nose drops suddenly. It's easy to see where the problem starts. Getting a plane into a spin is quite hard with many planes but pilots do what is required often without intending to. A plane can be NOT stalled ,ie IS unstalled at speeds well below the "normal" stall speed. It's AoA that matters. What controls the AoA? The elevators. What's controlling the elevators ?YOU.. Nev

 

 

[ian00798]

In a K13, I was taught to enter a spin with ailerons & rudder neutral, and stick back until the break. At which point, one wing would drop. If the spin was allowed to develop, the procedure was opposite rudder, stick forward to unstall, recover using coordinated controls.But at the incipient spin, when the wing starts to drop, it was stressed to use only the rudder, keeping the ailerons centralised. This always worked to prevent the wing dropping further and a spin developing.

 

So, either my terminology is incorrect, or my memory fails me. Now my recall is pretty crap at times, but I have a solid sense of doing just as I said - picking up a wing with rudder, not aileron.

It's your terminology that is the issue. Picking up the wing with rudder implies that not only have you prevented the wing from dropping, but you are actually using the rudder to return to wings level which is a tremendously bad idea. What you said earlier in the post was correct, where you used the rudder to prevent further wing drop. Then once you have unstalled the aircraft you use aileron to roll to wings level.

 

 

[djpacro]

If we keep things basic and simple what has to be done is STOP the turn (with full opposite rudder) and unstall the wings by pitching the plane forward.

I'm always very careful with my choice of words when describing spin recovery. I encounter too many pilots who think that the stick is moved forward, after the rotation is stopped, to unstall the wings. CASA's Flight Instructor Manual states:“To recover, first ensure that the throttle is closed, ailerons neutral and the direction of turn identified. This is followed by application of full opposite rudder. After a brief pause ease the control column forward progressively until the spinning stops. Centralize the rudder and ease gently out of the resulting steep dive, levelling the wings.”

 

The FAA's Airplane Flying Handbook expands on that and is significantly different regarding the use of elevator.

 

eg "In the absence of the manufacturer’s recommended spin recovery procedures and techniques, the following spin recovery procedures are recommended.

 

.....

 

The controls should be held firmly in this position. When the stall is “broken,” the spinning will stop."

 

Any instructor who trains you in spinning a particular aircraft should be fully conversant with its quirks and know the recommended method of recovery for that plane specifically....

One would expect that, but not always the case as shown by the Chipmunk spin accident a few years ago. CASA's requirement for a spin endorsement is limited to the specific type that you do the training in. So, for example, if you do the spin training in a Cessna 152 then don't assume that you know enough to recover from a spin in a Decathlon, Chipmunk, Pitts or Zlin .....

 

Book – Stall/Spin Awareness[/url]

[APenNameAndThatA]

You got three agrees, but your comment just seems dumb. Spin. Opposite rudder. Stick forward. Wait. Pull out. I'm pretty sure that you can do that without training.

Good luck with that, in some aircraft you'd find yourself in an inverted spin with control inputs you've described.A docile old C172 will behave very differently with 4 POB and some baggage (ie CofG nearer the aft limit)

Like I've said earlier - proper training required, seems like you've got just enough knowledge to be dangerous.

I said that I planned to get spin training. My comment was in response to your assertion that people (I) would not be able to recover from a spin unless trained. I have no intention to practice spins with no training, or even without an instructor. To interpret my comments otherwise is silly.

 

 

[Roundsounds]

I said that I planned to get spin training. My comment was in response to your assertion that people (I) would not be able to recover from a spin unless trained. I have no intention to practice spins with no training, or even without an instructor. To interpret my comments otherwise is silly.

To quote your recovery technique:

- opposite rudder

 

- stick forward

 

- wait

 

- recover

 

To be fair its commonly taught by poorly trained instructors, as their spin entry is often from straight and level flight with the power off. This entry is completely unrealistic and promotes incorrect recovery techniques. I find a shallow climbing turn with partial power is much more effective, I take control of the rudder whilst the student is directed to maintain a particular pitch attitude and bank angle whilst I'm gradually increasing bottom turn rudder.

 

There are a few essential actions you must perform before opposite rudder etc:

 

- close the throttle

 

- neutralise the ailerons

 

- identify the direction of rotation

 

Also, you progressively apply elevator input to unstall the wings, this may require back stick if you're in an inverted spin. As soon as the rotation ceases you must centre the rudder, if you don't there's a chance of spinning in the opposite direction.

 

These recovery actions are pretty much universal, but you must apply the recovery technique as described by the aircraft manufacturer. The Piper Tomohawk had a particular method of elevator input described in its AFM.

 

 

[SSCBD]

Looks like everyone needs an refresher in spins, and how to explain (write) the recovery in this forum in English.

 

 

[djpacro]

Looks like everyone needs an refresher in .... how to explain (write) the recovery in this forum in English.

I'd be interested in your feedback on that point regarding my own posts please?

 

Looks like everyone needs an refresher in spins .....

I'm pretty sure that Roundsounds, for one, does not need a refresher and I will be so bold as to state that I do not (I'm a flight examiner for instructors who want to teach spins).

[APenNameAndThatA]

To quote your recovery technique:- opposite rudder

- stick forward

 

- wait

 

- recover

 

To be fair its commonly taught by poorly trained instructors, as their spin entry is often from straight and level flight with the power off. This entry is completely unrealistic and promotes incorrect recovery techniques. I find a shallow climbing turn with partial power is much more effective, I take control of the rudder whilst the student is directed to maintain a particular pitch attitude and bank angle whilst I'm gradually increasing bottom turn rudder.

 

There are a few essential actions you must perform before opposite rudder etc:

 

- close the throttle

 

- neutralise the ailerons

 

- identify the direction of rotation

 

Also, you progressively apply elevator input to unstall the wings, this may require back stick if you're in an inverted spin. As soon as the rotation ceases you must centre the rudder, if you don't there's a chance of spinning in the opposite direction.

 

These recovery actions are pretty much universal, but you must apply the recovery technique as described by the aircraft manufacturer. The Piper Tomohawk had a particular method of elevator input described in its AFM.

Those are good points.

 

 

[ian00798]

I'd be interested in your feedback on that point regarding my own posts please?I'm pretty sure that Roundsounds, for one, does not need a refresher and I will be so bold as to state that I do not (I'm a flight examiner for instructors who want to teach spins).

Now if only people on here would listen to your good advice instead of arguing every little point

 

 

[SSCBD]

I'd be interested in your feedback on that point regarding my own posts please?I'm pretty sure that Roundsounds, for one, does not need a refresher and I will be so bold as to state that I do not (I'm a flight examiner for instructors who want to teach spins).

Ok I accept you two then - but what about the rest?

 

 

[ian00798]

I am spin trained and endorsed, but frankly could use a refresher. That's why it scares me when people say they want to just go and try this kind of thing with out any training, you would be truly shocked at what seemingly insignificant things can make a spin unrecoverable.

 

 

[hihosland]

It is said that one cannot rely on the skid ball to identify direction of rotation.

 

Does that also apply to electronic skid indicators?

 

 

[ian00798]

It is said that one cannot rely on the skid ball to identify direction of rotation.Does that also apply to electronic skid indicators?

Correct. If I recall correctly the spin recovery bold face check list we used in the military was

 

Power Idle

 

Turn needle-identify direction of spin

 

Ailerons-centralise

 

Rudder-full opposite to turn needle

 

Elevator- centrally forward sufficient to unstall the wings

 

When rotation has ceased

 

Recover from dive

 

Post loss of control checks.

 

Notice that we are using the turn needle, not the balance ball. When you start doing things like multi engine training you will realise at times the balance ball lies, it's only really valid in the normal flight envelope of the aircraft and I suspect it would be true even with an electronic ball as the accelerometer would still be aligned similar to the ball in a mechanical instrument.

 

 

[derekliston]

Back when I did my PPL test in the UK spin recovery was part of the syllabus but I believe, (British residents please confirm) that it is no longer required. I believe the reasoning was that more people had died in spin training than stall spin accidents. I have spun 152 aerobat, decathlon and airtourer T6 and can confirm they all spin differently. I seem to remember that quite a few pilots died in the early days of the PA38 Tomahawk because it had an unconventional spin recovery. I think that was solved with 'spin strakes'

 

 

[rgmwa]

That's why it scares me when people say they want to just go and try this kind of thing with out any training, you would be truly shocked at what seemingly insignificant things can make a spin unrecoverable.

Reminds me of this thread from a few years back started by djpacro: Lecomber's Spin

 

rgmwa

 

 

[Oscar]

This whole discussion would be so much better served if we could get someone who DOES spin testing for aircraft as a matter of course, to comment. Keith Engelsman comes to mind..

 

I can only comment with experience from glider flying, and that experience may not be of much use for powered aircraft.

 

However: when flying gliders, in any thermal one is flying even closer to an incipient spin condition than in a well-organised circuit. Flying right back at the near-stall speed, in a continuous turn of anything from 30 to 60 degrees of bank, in rough air that is throwing you around, and often in close company with other gliders. Watch:

 

from about 2.00 to 3.15.Developed spin recovery might not be appropriate for Recreational aircraft, However, I firmly believe that recognition of and trained response to incipient spin recovery should be a requirement.

 

 

[spacesailor]

Oscar

 

What is the lever (left side of cockpit) that the pilot keeps working?.

 

thanks spacesailor