Spin Training

[Geoff13]

The second video gets me.

 

A highly experienced pilot in a highly modified aircraft.

 

But when he gets it wrong he sets up a go fund me page so everyone else can pay to fix his stuff up.

 

I should try that. LOL

 

 

[Garfly]

According to the YouTube info:

 

"Tom walked away uninjured, but his SQ2 was not so lucky. To make matters worse, the insurance application for the SQ2 was still at home sitting on his coffee table. Tom is a great guy who loves Alaska and aviation. Many people at the Fly In asked if there was any way they could help Tom out. As a result, we have started a GoFundMe campaign for him. Tom gave his consent, but is in no way asking for a handout or contribution. He is a real Alaskan Bush Pilot and will rebuild his SQ2 regardless."

 

 

[poteroo]

as most stall/spin accidents happen too low for it to be used.

Yes, and mostly are avoidable if the pilot has been trained to fly the aircraft in balance at all times. I encounter a disturbingly high number of pilots who skid the aircraft during left turns, (as onto final). This is a surefire way to spin 'under' and at 500ft or lower = no recovery likely. As you can guess, I'm a proponent of lots of 'co-ordinated' flight practice for students. If you can't fly 'in balance' - then it's difficult to learn how to fly intentionally 'out-of-balance' - as in slipping for height loss, and in crosswind ops.

 

happy days,

 

 

[turboplanner]

Yes, and mostly are avoidable if the pilot has been trained to fly the aircraft in balance at all times. I encounter a disturbingly high number of pilots who skid the aircraft during left turns, (as onto final). This is a surefire way to spin 'under' and at 500ft or lower = no recovery likely. As you can guess, I'm a proponent of lots of 'co-ordinated' flight practice for students. If you can't fly 'in balance' - then it's difficult to learn how to fly intentionally 'out-of-balance' - as in slipping for height loss, and in crosswind ops.happy days,

Interesting point. Instructors have drawn my attention to this instrument perhaps four times EVER.

Far from flying in perfect balance at all times, I consider I'm a bit sloppy in the circuit area.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

You can do without most instruments; noise, control response and the view outside can replace tacho, ASI and artificial horizon. Identifying unbalanced flight is not so easy. My teenage daughter contructed my plane's slip ball and it gets more of my attention than any other instrument.

 

 

 

[Geoff13]

So after starting this thread and obviously following it fairly closely I have come up with the following conclusions.

 

1. I should do spin training and if I am not comfortable doing that then maybe I shouldn't be flying.

 

2. Doing spin training could quite possibly involve a much higher risk of accident or injury. (I reach conclusion because many of the incidents that I have read about in this thread and other places have been the result of experienced people and instructors getting it wrong during spin training.)

 

3. There are almost as many ideas on how to do spin training and where and when as there are posters on this forum.

 

It all seems very confusing.

 

Choosing somewhere to do the training also appears fraught with danger because of number 3 above.

 

 

[Pominaus]

It's definitely an interesting topic, and I really don't agree with the 'or you shouldn't be flying' assertion.

 

I don't know, I haven't done it in nearly 20 years so I can't trust my memory, but I expect to be doing it again soon enough!

 

I don't know, there's certainly a risk involved with spin training of course, but I still lean towards a necessary evil I think.

 

That said in this day and age I think it's reasonable for 90% of your spin training to be in a simulator. I know we're not there yet in Australia with sin training compared to the US, but it's defo the future even for RA-Aus I expect.

 

Sure spins happen most often at low altitudes for obvious reasons, but without I expect the number of recoverable spin accidents to increase.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Choosing somewhere to do the training also appears fraught with danger because of number 3 above.

Regarding the thread on 25 Nm radius limit for RAA pilots without Nav endorsements, this is a good example of the RAA shortcoming.

In the GA system, with the defined Training Area, there is a defined Aerobatics Area, so no problem choosing somewhere to do legal training.

 

 

[SDQDI]

Maybe it would be more benificial to do Low level training? It certainly helps one to be more mindful of the planes balance rather than relying on the 'picture' of what the ground is doing.

 

Spinning is not something we (most of us) do or plan to do on most of our flights whereas low level flight happens at least twice on all our flights. It seems to me that the majority of spins that kill people develop at low levels so why not practice low level?

 

 

[M61A1]

What has the training area got to do with RA pilots with an XC endo?

 

 

[SDQDI]

Regarding the thread on 25 Nm radius limit for RAA pilots without Nav endorsements, this is a good example of the RAA shortcoming.In the GA system, with the defined Training Area, there is a defined Aerobatics Area, so no problem choosing somewhere to do legal training.

I don't see your point Turbs?

RAA can't do aeros so having an area for us to do so would be pointless no matter how close to the aerodrome it was. Also if doing this sort of training would we not have an instructor with us? Just trying to work out why you were worried about the 25nm

 

 

[turboplanner]

3. There are almost as many ideas on how to do spin training and where and when as there are posters on this forum.

It all seems very confusing.

 

Choosing somewhere to do the training also appears fraught with danger because of number 3 above.

It is this comment from Geoff that I was addressing; I know a few people with GA aerobatic rated aircraft, and endorsed for aerobatics who would happily fly to an RAA club/operator's field and conduct some spin training, but at the present time, if they did it within a 25 Nm radius of the airfield, anyone could be doing anything, whereas at a GA field it would just be a trip out to the designated aerobatics area of the Training Area.

 

I wasn't suggesting spin training in RAA Aircraft; and point out that training on recovery from unusual attitudes, spin training and aerobatic training can easily be obtained simply by hiring the appropriate aircraft and instructor from within GA; it's not as if you have to marry him (i.e. you may only want to play round with an hour or two of experience, and that might last you for years).

 

 

[M61A1]

Ga fields are also Ra fields (CTA excepted), There is a training area south of Toowoomba and it's still within 25 NM of quite a few other fields. They just use the radio to announce their intentions, conflicts seem to be rare. Still not sure why 25NM is relevant to the discussion?

 

I do agree though that it is a simple exercise to go and do spin/upset recovery training with a GA instructor, and well worth it.

 

 

[facthunter]

You are doing it dual so the distance to a suitable area involves your pocket mainly. Spins are only risky in planes that don't exhibit consistent spin recovery responses. In the right plane with the right instructor it's not risky to any extent beyond what most normal flying exposes you to. It's just using a bit of airspace in the vertical sense.. Spins and spirals should be dealt with together. Identifying which is involved quickly and responding appropriately, is critical to a safe recovery from either. This will be reinforced when (and IF) you do unusual attitude recoveries, particularly "under the hood".

 

Neither can be taught in RAAus aircraft which is unfortunate, but aircraft built for these purposes, ( ideally aerobatic rated rather than just utility aircraft) are much stronger, are subject to more rigid inspections and AD's. The fact you can't legally do intentional spins or get into a spiral on purpose doesn't mean you WON'T get into one.. While keeping the ball central helps a lot in turns, some misrigged aircraft will drop a particular wing consistently even when the ball position would predispose a normal plane to go the other way. Ball in centre won't guarantee you immunity from flicking in a dynamic wing loaded situation. just about every instructor out there will tell you that the stall that catches you out, ( and could kill you) won't resemble the ones you do in training much at all. The "normal" stalling session (s) aren't worth very much really. Just enables "someone" to cross off the sequence and not much else of any practical use. Nev

 

 

[djpacro]

My Pitts doesn't have a slip ball ...

 

 

[spacesailor]

"RAA can't do aeros so having an area for us to do so would be pointless"

 

\But when the GA crowd have their new weight increase in RAA, they will want everything now in GA put into RAA.

 

Under the hood for ifr & aerobatics Included.

 

spacesailor

 

 

[M61A1]

Aerobatics is recreational, why not take it on? Should they do it, you can be sure it will be subject to a million and one rules and conditions though.

 

IFR really isn't required for Rec flying though. Who wants to fly in sh1tty weather for fun?

 

 

[M61A1]

My Pitts doesn't have a slip ball ...

OMG ...However do you know what your aircraft is doing then?????

You must look like you're all over the place when you fly.

 

 

[johnm]

Suncoast flying ? gympie has a Victa Airtourer assuming for training - come in spinner

 

 

[Head in the clouds]

My Pitts doesn't have a slip ball ...

And you wouldn't need it, of course. But I do hope, by your comment, that you're not suggesting that normal mortals who haven't the experience to enable their competition in aerobatics at international level, shouldn't use one. I can't imagine how I could have taught balanced flying to people without a wool-tuft or a ball to refer to when their bum 'didn't feel right'.

 

Initially, because they're being pressed to one side or the other, or there's an airblast through a vent one side, students and low-hour pilots might well realise the aircraft isn't in balance, but those same people have a heap of trouble quickly determining to which side it is that they are out-of-balance - and even more so when they're under pressure. A quick glance at the wool or ball, and the ingrained rule of 'pull the string' or 'kick the ball' can have them flying safely far more quickly than trying to work out which buttock is aching, or which vent is blasting at them.

 

No spray intended djp, I respect your comments more than virtually anyone's on here, but I do very much believe in the importance of a slip/skid indicator for 'normal' flyers.

 

EDIT - love OK's one made by his daughter, we used to do similar with a s/s ball bearing, a bit of clear PVC tubing and baby oil, for a cheap version in the early ultralight days. BUT, I found an even better and cheaper version - most avionics repair shops have a number of Turn and Bank instruments that are not repairable and they keep them on the shelf just to have the bezels to sell for other repairs ... and THAT means the glass slip/skid vial can usually be bought for 10 bucks, then a bit of ingenuity to make a mounting and you have a quality instrument for peanuts! I love peanuts ;-)

 

EDIT EDIT - Spin training ... I don't believe you can do better than your local gliding club for cost and value and safety. One session and you'll learn all you need to recover most situations safely, and more particularly, how to avoid getting into that situation in the first place. Today's cost? Probably less than $300, I'd imagine.

 

 

[Geoff13]

Choosing somewhere to do the training also appears fraught with danger because of number 3 above.

My quote above about choosing where to do the training referred to the ability and skill set of possible instructors due to the high incidence of instructors/experienced people being involved in accidents, not as to where to physically go to do

 

It is this comment from Geoff that I was addressing; I know a few people with GA aerobatic rated aircraft, and endorsed for aerobatics who would happily fly to an RAA club/operator's field and conduct some spin training, but at the present time, if they did it within a 25 Nm radius of the airfield, anyone could be doing anything, whereas at a GA field it would just be a trip out to the designated aerobatics area of the Training Area.I wasn't suggesting spin training in RAA Aircraft; and point out that training on recovery from unusual attitudes, spin training and aerobatic training can easily be obtained simply by hiring the appropriate aircraft and instructor from within GA; it's not as if you have to marry him (i.e. you may only want to play round with an hour or two of experience, and that might last you for years).

[facthunter]

The high incidence (relatively) of spin events applies to long ago when some planes were a little suss, people were human and took risks with heights and doing flick rolls etc and everyone had the benefit of the training for the rest of their flying lives. I can't recall many mucking up a turn onto final. One reason could be they also did low level training and were aware of the illusions of slipping/ skidding in winds. Nothing like some good training. Some fields were "all over" , so you landed more into wind.. Planes generally had low maximum x wind component. Most were tailwheel. Prior to early 60's when the system changed and the big 3 didn't make certified spinnable planes..Nev

 

 

[Pominaus]

when the GA crowd have their new weight increase in RAA, they will want everything now in GA put into RAA.Under the hood for ifr & aerobatics Included.

spacesailor

I don't need a weight increase... but IFR endorsement you say ...

 

 

[spacesailor]

My weight goes up annually. LoL

 

spacesailor

 

 

[facthunter]

Not many GA do aeros. You need a special plane that's a bit limited for anything else. Most GA is pretty boring unless you have your own Jet. U/L's you can build and fix your own (if we don't muck that up too.) A weight increase would make it safer and cheaper to build. That has been discussed many times. Nev