Bad fuel

[shafs64]

This didn't happen when i was flying but could have.

 

About two weeks ago i filled my car up i use 98 unleaded but here is the kicker i wash my car engine on the same day. so you would think the electrics go wet. So after two week of cleaning out plugs and checking all sorts of things. it turned it was fuel contamination.

 

 

[Yenn]

I assume from this post that you had some sort of engine problem. Put down to poor fuel.

 

Not an unusual occurence, I had detonation from Caltex 98 fuel several years ago. Luckily I found the problem before the engine failed completely.

 

 

[Geoff13]

I minimise that risk to the best of my ability by only purchasing fuel from high volume/turnover sellers whenever possible. Truck, car, bike or plane I use the same policy.

 

For the plane 90% of my fuel is purchased from BP Caboolture Northbound. They are a very high turnover servo. It is then filtered before it goes in the plane. If it gets over 4 weeks old it then goes in the car and I buy fresh fuel for the plane.

 

 

[facthunter]

The fact is you have no guarantee of the fuel you buy being as it should be if it's mogas. IF you got it in sealed drums you have a chance. That is the only way to buy avgas unless from a proper bowser. I thought I was OK buying it from a fast moving proper brand but had trouble on two occasions, and after thinking about it realised it was for the same station in a town I visit, I asked some mechanics in the town would it be possible to get dud fuel from a XX station and was told it was common knowledge the so and so who owned that station was putting other stuff in the tanks, from time to time. I never went back and never again had any problems. The car on each occasion ran so bad I didn't think it would get me where I was going. Nev

 

 

[shafs64]

Yes the engines computer went into shut down safe mode. and then you are unable to rev it past three thousand RPM. But as others have said it's hit and miss when you buy fuel.

 

 

[Geoff13]

The fact is you have no guarantee of the fuel you buy being as it should be if it's mogas.Nev

Agreed but you can minimise the risk.

 

You have no guarantee that the engine won't stop, but you minimise the risk by taking all steps possible.

 

In millions of klms with trucks I only ever got bad fuel once. It was from a bad decision buying from a servo that only sold low volume diesel to cars and 4 wheel drives.

 

The cost to repair the truck and clean the fuel tanks and bad fuel from the system was in excess of $10,000.00. It was a very expensive lesson.

 

 

[facthunter]

The same happens with modern diesels. The slightest amount of water and you're up for over 5000. More on expensive stuff. Use only original or proven fuel filters and change at each engine oil change. Nev

 

 

[shafs64]

Agreed but you can minimise the risk.You have no guarantee that the engine won't stop, but you minimise the risk by taking all steps possible.

In millions of klms with trucks I only ever got bad fuel once. It was from a bad decision buying from a servo that only sold low volume diesel to cars and 4 wheel drives.

 

The cost to repair the truck and clean the fuel tanks and bad fuel from the system was in excess of $10,000.00. It was a very expensive lesson.

Ten gees ouch

 

 

[Head in the clouds]

I know about a series of industry tests that were conducted following fuel quality issues - some of the results were alarming.

 

I only buy fuel from Shell these days.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

I minimise that risk to the best of my ability by only purchasing fuel from high volume/turnover sellers whenever possible. .

This.

 

Sad for small servos, but the fact is EVERY underground tank has water in them, anyone who has done a pink stick test knows this.

 

You will always get some water, but the higher the turnover servo it is, the less water you get. Doesn't hurt to carry a bottle of metho in your car when going out country, half a cup in the tank with every fill does wonders.

 

 

[Head in the clouds]

Sad for small servos, but the fact is EVERY underground tank has water in them, anyone who has done a pink stick test knows this.

True ... well some of them ...

 

You will always get some water, but the higher the turnover servo it is, the less water you get.

Really? Actually the water is separated by a gascolator, it doesn't get delivered to the filling nozzle.

 

If people kept getting water in their car tanks, and hardly anyone ever uses metho to absorb it - what happens to the water?

 

Cars aren't generally fitted with gascolators.

 

Also the lift pump pickup isn't at the bottom of underground tanks. So very little, if any, water ever reaches the pump gascolator.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

I know about a series of industry tests that were conducted following fuel quality issues - some of the results were alarming.I only buy fuel from Shell these days.

Interesting, HITC. I've been told that BP have higher quality diesel than most.

 

 

[Yenn]

BP may have higher quality diesel, but it is not so long ago that BP caused thousands of diesel vehicles to need repair work. Unfortunately I got mine fixed before the problem had got so bad that it made news headlines. I paid for it myself.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

During regular service to a diesel vehicle I've found you need to be a bit forceful with the mechanic. Insist they change the fuel filter, and check it's been done.

 

 

[shafs64]

remember when mobile pumped all that bad avgas

 

 

[Downunder]

I put it to the current ceo and president 18 months ago that it would be good to get some fuel outlets to provide a better or known quality fuel.

 

Perhaps combine with marine groups to lobby for something. ( I imagine they have similar fuel quality issues?)

 

I was pretty much told 99% of problems were with owners/operators not not checking/maintaining their aircraft correctly....

 

 

[jetjr]

Find out what day the servo gets its delivery and avoid.

 

New fuel stirrs up all the water and crud

 

I think its legal for operators to add some products, and they do depending on price of components

 

The brand of servo doesnt relate to refinery it comes from, especially in regional areas

 

 

[onetrack]

Only buy from relatively new servos. Old servos tanks were only coated with bitumen in the '50's and 60's and '70's, and dropped in a hole in the ground and covered over.

 

Over the decades, the moisture and naturally-occurring chemicals in the soil lift the bitumen coating and corrode the tank with pinholes.

 

Then those pinholes gradually admit water and silt. That water and silt builds up until the suction pipe for the pump sucks it up.

 

In addition, floodwaters can enter tanks if the vents are situated too low, or if the sealing gaskets on the filler caps are in poor condition or missing.

 

Somewhere around a quarter of underground tanks have pinholes and poor sealing, and poorly-located vents.

 

Finally, all tanks with a major airspace in them, collect water, from simple condensation.

 

They have to breathe, as fuel is sucked out, and this sucks moisture laden air in.

 

Tanks that are left for long periods with low levels of fuel in them (as in low-throughput tanks), will contain more water from condensation than high-throughput tanks.

 

This is also why you should always keep your fuel tanks full, to reduce the amount of water in them from condensation.

 

The bowser gascolater will not stop all the water and silt that the bowser pump picks up.

 

They will filter to only about 10 or 20 microns, and a lot of fuel contaminants will still find their way through.

 

These are not bypass filters, they are full flow, and when they block up with water or silt, the pump still forces fuel (and contaminants) through them.

 

The newest style servo tanks (since about the early 1990's) are coated with superior anti-corrosive coatings (if they are steel - and many underground tanks today are fibreglass), and set in a sand-lined cavity, which is lined with two impermeable membranes.

 

By this, I mean the initial excavation is lined with the impermeable membrane to prevent moisture ingress (and to prevent fuel leaks outwards into surrounding soil) - then the cavity is lined with clean sand to an even and substantial thickness.

 

Then another membrane is dropped over the sand, and the tank is installed and covered over.

 

To finish, spears are inserted into the sand cavity (the interstitial space) and then electronic monitors are placed inside the spears.

 

The monitors pick up any fuel leakage or water ingress into the interstitial space.

 

The driver for this latest design has been environmental concerns, as many underground aquifers were found to be contaminated with benzene - a prime indicator of fuel tank leaks.

 

Underground tanks are monitored pretty closely in the heavily populated areas today, for fuel leakage into the surrounding soils - but not monitored anywhere near as much, in the lightly-populated or remote areas.

 

So a new servo in a densely-populated area is a better choice, than an old servo in some small country town or remote region.

 

https://www.worksafe.qld.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0011/82838/effects-flooding-service-ust.pdf

 

Leak detection methods for underground storage tanks

 

Storm advice for underground tank owners - Convenience & Impulse Retailing

 

 

[Oscar]

I know about a series of industry tests that were conducted following fuel quality issues - some of the results were alarming.I only buy fuel from Shell these days.

The brand on the pump doesn't mean it came from that company's refinery!

 

A mate of mine was the manager of the Shell refinery at Clyde in Sydney. He told me with glee one day about a new apprentice there, who told him that the Shell premium was nowhere near as good as the BP premium that came from the BP terminal next door. My mate told him,: 'well, you buy the BP stuff, then, laddie' - knowing that the BP fuel was delivered to the terminal via a pipeline direct from the Shell refinery..

 

 

[Yenn]

It all comes out of the same tanker, but it is possinle for the servo owner to apply aditives I am told. I was at BP the other day and the tanker was refuelling that servo. Next stop Caltex.

 

 

[Oscar]

A family member did the investigation into the BP Avgas contamination ( was awarded a medal by AOPA for his work on sorting out how to remediate that..)

 

One of the things he found ( there is an article some years ago in Sports Pilot about it) was that when refineries change from producing one category of fuel top another, there is often hundreds of litres of the 'old' specification still in the delivery lines. What you think is PULP, may not be it at all.

 

Avgas is the ONLY fuel that reliably meets the specification ( provided it isn't contaminated).

 

 

[onetrack]

If you check up on the origins of Australia's fuel, you will be surprised to see just how much of it is refined overseas and delivered ready to use.

 

The Asian refineries in SIngapore, South Korea and Japan, refine fuel in quantities that are substantially larger quantities on an annual basis, than any Australian refinery.

 

So oil companies can buy the refined specific product from an Asian refinery, refined to meet Australian Fuel Standards, cheaper than they can refine it here. This is the reason why we have so few refineries left in Australia - they can't compete.

 

The Singapore refineries supply over 60% of our refined petrol. This figure has been up to 82% at times.

 

There has been a six-fold increase in independent fuel importers, who own their own fuel storage and handling facilities, in the last 10 years.

 

So, only a relatively small % of the petrol you buy in Australia, comes from Australian refineries.

 

Diesel figures are similar, except a very large % of our refined diesel comes from South Korea and Japan.

 

We should have very good reason to worry about a military conflagration involving NK and the U.S.

 

SK and Japan will be the first to suffer from serious damage in the event of any North Korean attack - and that will seriously affect our fuel supplies.

 

The AIP site gives a very substantial amount of information on the petroleum fuels industry in Australia.

 

"Industry information" is the menu area you can source it from.

 

Industry Facts

 

Here's another interesting fact. When the refiners or shippers pump fuel around between refineries and ships and fuel farms, they usually have only one pipeline they can use for that.

 

So they need to send diesel, petrol and avgas from ship to fuel farm or refinery to fuel farm, in that one pipeline - and do you know how they do that?

 

They use blocks of water to separate the various types of fuel!

 

The water is separated from the incoming stream at the storage facility, and then the new stream of product is sent to the appropriate tank!

 

So you already have water added to your fuel from the refinery or ship!

 

 

[facthunter]

One more thing you should know. WE only have 3 weeks supply of fuel in reserve. As stated it's nearly all from Singapore. No need to invade, or fire a shot. A month's blockade and nothing moving here.. Clever Country??? Nev

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

One more thing you should know. WE only have 3 weeks supply of fuel in reserve. As stated it's nearly all from Singapore. No need to invade, or fire a shot. A month's blockade and nothing moving here.. Clever Country??? Nev

The politicians who have allowed out local refining industry to almost disappear deserve the boot.

Blind worship of market forces without reference to historic precedent.

 

 

[Lozzer]

Just to add a little more to the useful info in this thread....

 

Re older servos - Also avoid older servos in lower lying areas in country towns and urban areas that may be exposed to flooding, even rarely. You can guess where some of the flood water find its way to and remains.

 

Re fuel quality - Several of us use blends of Avgas and 98ULP. After extensive investigation we discovered that the only ULP with a specified shelf life in its MSDS is BP. (12 months). This has proven the case in practice with the higher volatile and less stable fuels (the ones the discounters turn over quickly) rapidly losing octane levels in a very short time. I'm not advocating that even the BP 98 be stored for more than a couple of weeks if you have a higher compression motor..

 

Re fuel storage - UV exposure and time reduce fuel quality surprisingly quickly (in days especially for the discounted fuels. Just check out the volatile fumes being emitted from an open fuel can or funnel). Best only stored out of sunlight and preferably in metal jerry cans.

 

Notwithstanding the above, old stock, poor handling/filtering by servo operators/users, contaminants, etc all make a big difference..