Restricted Airspace

[BirdDog]

Hello Gents,

 

I am wondering if someone can point me in the right direction.

 

It is my understanding that to enter a CTR (military or otherwise) you would need CTA endorsement. However, can someone tell me what the requirement is for restricted?

 

I understand approval is required from said millitary, I get that, but is a CTA endorsement required for millitary restricted airspace for an RAA pilot, and if so, where is that actually stated?

 

Sorry if this is a dumb question, but I am getting conflicting information, so I am trying to find the factual documentation.

 

Cheers

 

J

 

 

[turboplanner]

Search for it on the CASA site?

 

 

[Geoff_H]

The RAAF give you an authorization number. When requesting clearance to enter military CTA you will have to quote this clearance if your aircraft is not based at the aerodrome. If just passing through restricted zone civilian traffic controller will organise it

 

 

[Happyflyer]

My two cents worth. Restricted air space is controlled airspace. Therefore you need a CTA endorsement to enter (RA2 or RA3). You cannot get this endorsement on an RAAus certificate.

 

 

[Geoff13]

Search for it on the CASA site?

That answer whilst technically correct is about as useful as a screen door in a submarine.

The CASA website is about as user friendly an encyclopaedia written on a dunny roll using a 6 inch crayon.

 

 

[Geoff_H]

Yes.i did it on a vh licence. Unsure what other restrictions are.

 

 

[Birdseye]

Not saying whether it is correct or not as I haven't gone to the source documents, but para 1.4 on this link has information relevant to your question.

 

Tutorial: Australian airspace regulations

 

 

[Roundsounds]

Restricted airspace is treated as Class C. The PRD section of the ERSA lists all P, R and D airspace, you can also gain info as to whether you can plan to transit it or not. There's still no guarantee that you'll get a clearance. If you're operating an RAAus registered aircraft you need to satisfy the requirements contained in the appropriate CAO (95.55 most likely) regarding the aircraft and pilot qual's. If you need any further info I suggest you seek guidance from a suitably qualified flight instructor, RAAus Ops manager of CASA safety advisor.

 

 

[Birdseye]

This question has whetted my curiosity. The statement "is treated as Class C" is not definitive. It also raises the question why an aircraft or its pilot quals are relevant, especially in the case of a non-aviation Restricted Area. I'd be keen to see any legislation reference that confirms the "treated as" position. No doubt exists about the areas or the requirement for permission to enter, as that is spelt out in ERSA.

 

 

[coljones]

This question has whetted my curiosity. The statement "is treated as Class C" is not definitive. It also raises the question why an aircraft or its pilot quals are relevant, especially in the case of a non-aviation Restricted Area. I'd be keen to see any legislation reference that confirms the "treated as" position. No doubt exists about the areas or the requirement for permission to enter, as that is spelt out in ERSA.

"Treated as Class C" is indicative of the level of equipment required on the aircraft eg at least a VHF radio and transponder. There are also personal requirement on the PIC to enter other than E or G space, usually a CASA Licence with a CTR Endorsement.

 

 

[Birdseye]

"Treated as Class C" is indicative of the level of equipment required on the aircraft eg at least a VHF radio and transponder. There are also personal requirement on the PIC to enter other than E or G space, usually a CASA Licence with a CTR Endorsement.

Yes that would make sense, but what I'm asking is where is the actual legislation that supports this treatment statement. Without that, the statement is nothing better than "a bloke in the pub told me".

 

 

[BirdDog]

So some have just stumbled into my dilemma. "Treated as" is my point.

 

I have very good experience with casa regs and laws (I'm in aviation) so hence my head scratcher on this one. It's very easy to say "you will need CTA endorsement " but what I'm looking for is where that actually is stated.

 

There are so many example of people thinking they "know" a regulation, but have never seen nor have any knowledgeable of where to it stated. It's just what they have been told / trained.

 

I find it strange that all of the RAA documents I'm looking through, none mention Restricted - unless I've missed it.

 

So if someone knows where it's actually stated - in any data - that's what I'm looking for.

 

I guess we should all know where to find this info if we are to be responsible RAA pilots. Surely it's in our best interest to know the info, not just hear it from some guy at the pub. ;)

 

Cheers

 

J

 

 

[Roundsounds]

Yes that would make sense, but what I'm asking is where is the actual legislation that supports this treatment statement. Without that, the statement is nothing better than "a bloke in the pub told me".

It's in the AIP, it's about time RAAus pilots started learning how to read these documents - it's not that difficult!

Try AIP ENR 5.3 and CAO 95.55, para 7.3

 

and some background info:

 

Project OS 12/43 - Amendment to CAO 95.55 to clarify CASA's policy in regard to operations by RA-Aus pilots and RA-Aus aircraft in active military restricted areas | Civil Aviation Safety Authority

 

 

[nathan_c]

It's in the AIP, it's about time RAAus pilots started learning how to read these documents - it's not that difficult!Try AIP ENR 5.3 and CAO 95.55, para 7.3

and some background info:

 

Project OS 12/43 - Amendment to CAO 95.55 to clarify CASA's policy in regard to operations by RA-Aus pilots and RA-Aus aircraft in active military restricted areas | Civil Aviation Safety Authority

You have no idea how much I agree with that statement

 

 

[cscotthendry]

And if all else fails, try ringing RA Aus and get the ops manager on the phone and ask the question directly. They're not dragons down there, they're just people like us and will answer questions. Then once you have a direct answer from the horse's mouth (so to speak) you have an authority to quote if something goes awry.

 

 

[Jaba-who]

Of course the question remains - why do you want to fly into a restricted area while its active?

 

When A restricted area is activated its because there are military aircraft or bullets or both flying around.

 

Or do you mean a military control zone at a military airfield? That's an entirely different meaning and proposition.

 

We have a bunch a restricted areas south of here around Townsville. The areas are frequently active and have fast jets and helos flying at all levels without lights or radio calls. No way you want be there when they are active. I always plan for flights around them as you will usually not get clearance to cross them when they are active even if you ask properly. In fact I have never heard of civilian aircraft being given approval to enter active restricted areas except for flying doctor aircraft on a Med 1 priority task.

 

Interestingly though theres a vfr entry route from the west through it and once I was with another aircraft ( RAAus ) transiting the lane and the other guy was not sure where he was - drifted into the area. Got calls from military controller telling him to turn back into the lane. He turned wrong way and got deeper into it. They called a couple of times and he got flustered etc made things worse. They called back and words to the effect of "control and advisory services are terminated. You are entering a live firing area at your own responsibity for whatever happens from here.!"

 

As far as I am aware he never heard anything more about it. ( although it's possible he did and just never told me. )

 

Oops Mea Culpa - I just reread the initial post and you did say a military control zone (not a restricted area). It was someone further down the line seems it drifted off into a confused state.

 

Back into my box!

 

 

[turboplanner]

I find it strange that all of the RAA documents I'm looking through, none mention Restricted - unless I've missed it.

I guess we should all know where to find this info if we are to be responsible RAA pilots. Surely it's in our best interest to know the info, not just hear it from some guy at the pub. ;)

Did you click on the link provided by Roundsounds in #13?

If you think about it, we fly in CASA, Airservices airspace, so we have to comply with their rules.

 

It would be expensive, unwieldy and unproductive for RAA to maintain a duplicate set of regulations on its website.

 

Having said that, even with a staff in excess of a thousand people, CASA and Airservices have been unable to provide an articulate set of regulations which a pilot of reasonable intelligence, planning for a flight in the next hour or so can refer to and find a definitive answer from.

 

I often go straight to the legislation, because that is the simplest. By the time you get to advisories, written by public servants in Canberra, and various other documents, and the Visual Flight Rules Guide it can be a confusing mess.

 

CASA, responsible for safety, have never been able to get themselves into the digital age and produce a simple indexing and nesting system to suit a pilot who they expect to do a legal flight plan.

 

The problem is, that is the muck we have to work with. Like the multi-policies of a global company, if you were flying every day, after a few months you would have a good knowledge of the system, but I have a lot of sympathy for low annual hour pilots.

 

Where RAA has been at fault, is not making it clear enough that you have to comply with the CASA/Airservices system, and that should go onto the RAA website, into the training, and be constantly reinforced by the instructors, but other than that, there's no alternative for anyone flying to making the effort to learn the rules themselves.

 

 

[Birdseye]

It's in the AIP, it's about time RAAus pilots started learning how to read these documents - it's not that difficult!Try AIP ENR 5.3 and CAO 95.55, para 7.3

and some background info:

 

Project OS 12/43 - Amendment to CAO 95.55 to clarify CASA's policy in regard to operations by RA-Aus pilots and RA-Aus aircraft in active military restricted areas | Civil Aviation Safety Authority

OK, CAO 95.55, para 7.3 makes no reference to the original question asked and refers solely to controlled i.e. alphabet airspace. AIP ENR 5.3 (if that is the correct reference) talks about the issuing of notams for restricted and other areas. The CASA Project document is not legislation. Nothing to do with recreational flying in my case, I have decades of professional aviation experience and I can't find it.

 

 

[Birdseye]

Oops Mea Culpa - I just reread the initial post and you did say a military control zone (not a restricted area). It was someone further down the line seems it drifted off into a confused state.

Back into my box!

He also goes on in his post : "However, can someone tell me what the requirement is for restricted?" Another "mea culpa"?

 

 

[BirdDog]

Ok... So... This thread has had the desired result! It's not just me that finds it difficult to get clear information about our requirements as an RAA pilot. For those wanting to know why, my home AD sits smack bang in the middle of an RA1 Military Restricted Airspace.

 

NOT a control zone! They recently removed it. It's now RA1 Restricted.

 

So yes, I am trying to get 100% clarity of when I can and can't fly. My aircraft indeed flies in this airspace, as all of my training was done while the airspace was active. So the question for me is not is the aircraft allowed in ( that I know - I have the transponder etc etc) it's more, me as a pilot. FYI - The airspace generally switches off on the weekend.

 

It's very clear from the responses in this thread that, just like other areas of aviation, the information for an RAA pilot is also confusing and difficult to find. Now... Given the amount of Restricted Airspace around the country, you would think a simple page on the RAA website explaining it in clear english would be a simple solution! But yet - no - we have to dive in to the very confusing world of legal documentation.

 

So I look at it this way....

 

What is the first question people ask me when I tell them I am an RAA Pilot? Want to know? The question I get is - "where are you allowed to fly?"

 

So why the heck is there not a page easily grabbed in the RAA site that steps that out in plane english? I would have thought that is one of the most important questions we should have the answers to. And not just the obvious C and D etc. But PRD, ADIZ etc etc.

 

Another reason this came up is because recently an RAA registered aircraft recently wandered into controlled airspace, so it kicked the discussion along, which led to me seeking complete clarification on the airspace at my home AD.

 

Anyways... My fear was realised... the info for RAA pilots is just as cumbersome as the rest of the CASA information.

 

Thanks for the discussion lads.

 

 

[turboplanner]

It's very clear from the responses in this thread that, just like other areas of aviation, the information for an RAA pilot is also confusing and difficult to find. Now... Given the amount of Restricted Airspace around the country, you would think a simple page on the RAA website explaining it in clear english would be a simple solution! But yet - no - we have to dive in to the very confusing world of legal documentation.

You're asking one of the more obscure questions in aviation; it's not really an RAA question as previously explained. You will find your answer one way or another from the CASA website information, or you could contact CASA.

 

This is the link on who to contact:

 

Who to contact | Civil Aviation Safety Authority

 

From that link, possibly "Air Traffic Service - Standards", or more likely one of the Regional Offices. Your avatar only lists you as "NSW", so you could pick from Tamworth, Sydney, Canberra.

 

I would just stick to information from the first three paragraphs of #20 plus your actual location, to get a quick response.

 

 

[KRviator]

It isn't that hard to find the info, you just need to look. If active, you need "Clearance" (So a CTA endo) or "Approval as appropriate".

 

Military CTR: A CTR administered by the Australian Defence Force. Class C procedures and services apply to civil flights

 

 

 

Control Areas and Control Zones (civil or military), either wholly or in part, maybe released to another ATS unit (civil or military). The airspace remains active and a clearance is required to enter. 

 

The responsibility for a Military Restricted Area, either wholly or in part, may be transferred to a civil ATS unit. The released airspace remains active and a clearance or approval, as appropriate, is required to enter.

[BirdDog]

Thanks Turbo - But don't you find that concerning? That we have RAA pilots getting the tick every weekend, yet this thread can't seem to nut down the information that is VITAL to our safety.

 

To me - that's a big problem.

 

 

[aro]

It looks like CASA policy is that it is not allowed, however someone accidentally removed the rule forbidding it in 2011. The project 12/43 document was intended to change it back, but that doesn't seem to have happened yet.

 

So technically it looks like it is allowed, but probably no-one will tell you that because it is against stated CASA policy (and probably against RAA policy).

 

Yet another example where the actual rules are ignored in favor of "policy" based on what people reckon the rules SHOULD say. This is why interpreting aviation legislation is so hard - because there are so many areas where it is ignored in the real world.

 

 

[turboplanner]

It looks like CASA policy is that it is not allowed, however someone accidentally removed the rule forbidding it in 2011. The project 12/43 document was intended to change it back, but that doesn't seem to have happened yet.So technically it looks like it is allowed, but probably no-one will tell you that because it is against stated CASA policy (and probably against RAA policy).

Yet another example where the actual rules are ignored in favor of "policy" based on what people reckon the rules SHOULD say. This is why interpreting aviation legislation is so hard - because there are so many areas where it is ignored in the real world.

There's no Australian Law that can be overturned by policy, you're either complying with the law or breaching the law. The pathway to fixing your example is easy, but it can take some time.