Restricted Airspace

[BirdDog]

SO.... The question remains....

 

Can an RAA pilot legally fly into Restricted Airspace (with the approval of the controlling Authority) if his Aircraft meets the requirements?

 

Who would have though this question would be so hard to answer. ;)

 

 

[turboplanner]

Thanks Turbo - But don't you find that concerning? That we have RAA pilots getting the tick every weekend, yet this thread can't seem to nut down the information that is VITAL to our safety.To me - that's a big problem.

Yes, I've posted a few thousand words on a few hundred posts, but we are just spectators. I know quite a number of CASA/Airservices people read and contribute to this forum, but they have to deal with the internal politics. Turning around the culture of any big organisation is a massive task.

The key player is CASA, and RAA have the duty of care to train pilots to whatever standards of CASA/Airservices regulations exist.

 

 

[REastwood]

Also, everybody needs to remember that you are all bound by THE rules (CAR, CASR, CAO etc) and that RA-Aus operates under various EXEMPTIONS from those rules (CAO 95.55, 95.10 etc) so there isn't really a rule for GA and a rule for RA-Aus. As pilots you need to at least read THE rules as they do actually apply to you. If there is an exemption to that rule contained in a CAO pertinent to your aircraft then that exemption applies to that rule. So have a read through the AIP at least.

 

 

[aro]

There's no Australian Law that can be overturned by policy, you're either complying with the law or breaching the law.

Right, however violations of the law might not be prosecuted (or might even be condoned) and if you violate policy CASA can take action that would very much feel like a prosecution, even if it might not stand up to strict scrutiny of the legislation.

 

 

[aro]

you are all bound by THE rules (CAR, CASR, CAO etc) and that RA-Aus operates under various EXEMPTIONS from those rules (CAO 95.55, 95.10 etc)

Correct. The restrictions on what is allowed in RAA come from the conditions in CAO 95.55 and the RAA ops manual.

 

If neither mention restricted areas, it appears that the rules for RAA would be the same as for GA.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Right, however violations of the law might not be prosecuted (or might even be condoned) and if you violate policy CASA can take action that would very much feel like a prosecution, even if it might not stand up to strict scrutiny of the legislation.

There's what is supposed to happen and bluff which can happen from time to time in semi-autonomous bodies (SAB for this post) set up by governments.

For example, I recently came across a SAB who had conspired with a Council to breach a regulation administer by another SAB.

 

The regulation, for safety reasons prohibited a particular building within 13 kilometres of a hazardous site.

 

This didn't suit the developer, and the first SAB approved it by the legally shaky path of not disapproving it, and were found to have entered discussions with the second SAB along the grounds of "well 1100 metres would be enough distance wouldn't it, and the second SAB said something like, sounds alright to me, if we made a regulation for the distance to be 1100 metres, but we'll put it to the Minister to see if he will set the distance at 1100 metres."

 

This could almost come from a "Yes Minister" story.

 

 

[KRviator]

SO.... The question remains....Can an RAA pilot legally fly into Restricted Airspace (with the approval of the controlling Authority) if his Aircraft meets the requirements?

 

Who would have though this question would be so hard to answer. ;)

It isnt hard to answer. Per my AIP references above, a MIL CTR=Class C. An active MIL Rxxx requires clearance - or "approval" if there is a publishedlocal procedure.Can an RAAus pilot request clearance into Class C normally, or Class D if not a student pilot? No. There's your answer.

 

 

[Bennyboy320]

Best option when dealing with the AIP is to download it in GoodReader then do a word search for what you are researching.

 

 

[Birdseye]

It isnt hard to answer. Per my AIP references above, a MIL CTR=Class C. An active MIL Rxxx requires clearance - or "approval" if there is a publishedlocal procedure.Can an RAAus pilot request clearance into Class C normally, or Class D if not a student pilot? No. There's your answer.

I think that it has been established that there is still a question mark. Not only that, but the Aeronautical Information Publication is a subordinate document, not the prime legislation.

 

 

[facthunter]

CASR's etc are for lawyers. I don't believe they should be regarded as working documents in the practical sense.Nev

 

 

[aro]

It isnt hard to answer. Per my AIP references above, a MIL CTR=Class C

But MIL CTR is different to a restricted area. East Sale, Amberley MIL CTRs are explicitly labelled Class C on the charts.

 

Restricted areas don't appear to change the class of airspace, they are just "restricted".

 

 

[ben87r]

I don't have my regs with me at the moment but when I trained (GA) restricted airspace was controlled (because it required a clearance) but was technically still class G airspace (disregarding aircraft requirements). I've flown through restricted airspace regularly, and never thought of it as class C.

 

Mil CTR obviously different.

 

 

[coljones]

It isnt hard to answer. Per my AIP references above, a MIL CTR=Class C. An active MIL Rxxx requires clearance - or "approval" if there is a publishedlocal procedure.Can an RAAus pilot request clearance into Class C normally, or Class D if not a student pilot? No. There's your answer.

Yes you can, if you also hold a CASA Licence with CTA privileges. Birddog should talk to his CFI who bears some responsibility in training him about operations in the middle of Mil Space (I presume Nowra)

 

 

[KRviator]

But then you are flying under the authority of your FCL, not your RPC...

 

CAR 140 says you cannot fly in a Restricted area unless it is in accordance with the conditions specified in the notice declaring the area to be a restricted area. That notice is given in the AIP, part of which is the ERSA PRD as well as the DAH. The AIP also says you cannot fly through an active restricted area unless you are authorised, or cleared. As RAAus does not currently have authority to operate in controlled airspace, with the few exceptions of FTF's located in Class D towered areas that are covered under specific CASA Exemptions, a RAAus pilot cannot fly in, or request clearance through, an active restricted area.

 

And yes, the AIP is a legal document, referenced by the Civil Aviation Regulations as a place for notices to be published.

 

 

[aro]

RAAus does not currently have authority to operate in controlled airspace

That's not true, Class E is controlled airspace - clearance is required for IFR. VFR aircraft do not require a clearance, but it is still considered controlled airspace.

 

CAO 95.55:

 

(d) the aeroplane must only be flown in:

 

(i) Class G airspace; or

 

(ii) Class E airspace in V.M.C.; or

 

(iii) in accordance with paragraph 7.3 — in Class A, B, C or D airspace;

 

It refers specifically to classes of airspace, not "controlled airspace". So if a restricted area is still class G, it appears that it is allowed.

 

 

[Happyflyer]

Active restricted airspace is not class G or C, it's restricted airspace and can not be entered without permission, that means it is controlled. Non active restricted airspace reverts to the underlying class which could be G or any other class.

 

 

[Jaba-who]

I'm sorry to say this but:

 

MAN this thread has degenerated into an endless loop of crazy (and mostly wrong) interpretations (and unrelated red herrings) revolving and disappearing up its own arse.

 

 

[KRviator]

That's not true, Class E is controlled airspace - clearance is required for IFR. VFR aircraft do not require a clearance, but it is still considered controlled airspace.CAO 95.55:

 

(d) the aeroplane must only be flown in:

 

(i) Class G airspace; or

 

(ii) Class E airspace in V.M.C.; or

 

(iii) in accordance with paragraph 7.3 — in Class A, B, C or D airspace;

 

It refers specifically to classes of airspace, not "controlled airspace". So if a restricted area is still class G, it appears that it is allowed.

FML, does anybody actually read the AIP?

 

AIP ENR 1.1-4.1.12: unless an appropriate clearance has been obtained, the PIC of an aircraft operating in Class G airspace, or a VFR aircraft operating in Class E airspace, must not allow the aircraft to enter:Airspace for which ATC Clearance is required, or

An active restricted area

[Jaba-who]

Birddog,

 

This current thread is not going to get you an answer, in part but by no means limited to, because there is widespread confusion as to what form of airspace you are actually trying to describe. Mil CTR or Restricted Area which are two completely different things.

 

Can you tell us your exact location and what form of controlled area you are located in - Is it a Mil CTR or is it an Rxxxx (PRD) type restricted area. Name of and numbers so we can look it up would be a great help.

 

In fact its the only way we will stop all the bush lawyers going off on tangents about airspace rules for Class E, downtown Baghdad or the far side of the moon

 

 

[coljones]

But then you are flying under the authority of your FCL, not your RPC...CAR 140 says you cannot fly in a Restricted area unless it is in accordance with the conditions specified in the notice declaring the area to be a restricted area. That notice is given in the AIP, part of which is the ERSA PRD as well as the DAH. The AIP also says you cannot fly through an active restricted area unless you are authorised, or cleared. As RAAus does not currently have authority to operate in controlled airspace, with the few exceptions of FTF's located in Class D towered areas that are covered under specific CASA Exemptions, a RAAus pilot cannot fly in, or request clearance through, an active restricted area.

 

And yes, the AIP is a legal document, referenced by the Civil Aviation Regulations as a place for notices to be published.

"FCL"? And for the rest - will respect BUT!

 

 

[ian00798]

FML, does anybody actually read the AIP?

Stop asking yourself that one or you will become KRaziator in no time, trust me.

 

 

[Kununurra]

Birddog,

 

Have you telephoned the tower that you are referring to and ask them straight up rather than look for answers on here?

 

My aircraft is hangared in an area that has similarities to what you have described, prior to taking up the option to lease the hangar I telephoned the RAAF base tower to ask what they will/will not accept in terms of aircraft movements.

 

Cheers

 

 

[BirdDog]

Ok.. I thought I was pretty clear - RESTRICTED - NOT CTR. The CTR was in fact recently removed.

 

It is now R421A.

 

No point calling the tower - the dude in the tower can't overrule a CASA Regulation or an RAA requirement. So he or she could very well say... yeah.. go fly mate, squark 4265!! But that does not mean legally I am allowed to fly there.

 

I knew this thread would end up like it has, because I have already had the same discussions with local pilots that I know. Everyone seems to have a different answer. LOL! The worrying thing is - we should ALL know this inside out - and I don't, along with many others - and that's a worry.

 

 

[Roundsounds]

Ok.. I thought I was pretty clear - RESTRICTED - NOT CTR. The CTR was in fact recently removed.It is now R421A.

 

No point calling the tower - the dude in the tower can't overrule a CASA Regulation or an RAA requirement. So he or she could very well say... yeah.. go fly mate, squark 4265!! But that does not mean legally I am allowed to fly there.

 

I knew this thread would end up like it has, because I have already had the same discussions with local pilots that I know. Everyone seems to have a different answer. LOL! The worrying thing is - we should ALL know this inside out - and I don't, along with many others - and that's a worry.

You've been given all sorts of conflicting info', bottom line is Restricted Airspace is treated the same was as Class C.

Your best way forward would be to contact your local CASA safety advisor and seek their guidance.

 

Here's a link to the list of advisors:

 

Aviation Safety Advisors (ASA) | Civil Aviation Safety Authority

 

 

[BirdDog]

Yep. Thanks. I already have that in motion. A few of us in here should do the same. :)