Restricted Airspace

[KRviator]

I knew this thread would end up like it has, because I have already had the same discussions with local pilots that I know. Everyone seems to have a different answer. LOL! The worrying thing is - we should ALL know this inside out - and I don't, along with many others - and that's a worry.

Without wanting to sound like a smartasre - what is so hard to understand about the AIP reference provided?

[turboplanner]

Yep. Thanks. I already have that in motion. A few of us in here should do the same. :)

I'd refer you back to post #1, the one immediately after your question.

 

 

[Roundsounds]

I'd refer you back to post #1, the one immediately after your question.

They'll tell you you'll a need transponder, GA licence, flight review and medical. Ask them why glider pilots don't need these (aside from the xpdr), yet RAA do.

 

 

[facthunter]

It would still be a good idea to have user( pilot ) friendly UNAMBIGUOUS operating rules. Even check captains don't understand CASR's. They are too legalistic and were not intended to be used directly at the coalface (so to speak).

 

A format such as.... Before you fly your U/L, across Australia, you should be familiar with A,B ,C .... Common errors occur with X, Y, Z,. It's not as easy as it should be to understand. Explain the thought music behind some of the rules. More work should be done there . Facilitate rather than just regulate. It's not for some to know and others just find out by something like luck. Nev

 

 

[mkennard]

Didn't they try with the VFR Guide though useful, need to apply the RAAUS rules on top of this.

 

Civil Aviation Safety Authority | Visual Flight Rules Guide

 

It would still be a good idea to have user( pilot ) friendly UNAMBIGUOUS operating rules. Even check captains don't understand CASR's. They are too legalistic and were not intended to be used directly at the coalface (so to speak).A format such as.... Before you fly your U/L, across Australia, you should be familiar with A,B ,C .... Common errors occur with X, Y, Z,. It's not as easy as it should be to understand. Explain the thought music behind some of the rules. More work should be done there . Facilitate rather than just regulate. It's not for some to know and others just find out by something like luck. Nev

[Jaba-who]

Just to reiterate

 

The AIP outlines it all in ENR 1.4 sections 5 -

 

All in absolute black and white - restricted RA1 means when it's active it's Class C. But you could plan to go through but you gotta get approval and it is likely to be given but it may be refused. Given it's in the middle of the Nowra zone it's a certainty there would be a tower ( and it will be outlined in the ERSA who and how to contact to get that approval. That carries the assumption it requires you ( and the aircraft) to be qualified to enter it.

 

I have to assume from your questioning you do not have the qualifications to enter class C airspace. So essentially if that remains the case, when R421A goes active you're grounded.

 

I want to ask another question that derives from your question.

 

You ask if you need a CTA endorsement to enter it as an RAAus pilot?

 

Have I missed a change in the rules but it's my understanding that there is no such RAAus CTA endorsement ( only a GA RPL endorsement). AFAIK It's a wish list item for RAAus but does not exist.

 

Have I got that right?

 

 

[Jaba-who]

They'll tell you you'll a need transponder, GA licence, flight review and medical. Ask them why glider pilots don't need these (aside from the xpdr), yet RAA do.

 

It would still be a good idea to have user( pilot ) friendly UNAMBIGUOUS operating rules. Even check captains don't understand CASR's. They are too legalistic and were not intended to be used directly at the coalface (so to speak).A format such as.... Before you fly your U/L, across Australia, you should be familiar with A,B ,C .... Common errors occur with X, Y, Z,. It's not as easy as it should be to understand. Explain the thought music behind some of the rules. More work should be done there . Facilitate rather than just regulate. It's not for some to know and others just find out by something like luck. Nev

As much as I agree with you that on some things the rules are impossible to follow or navigate - this is not one of them.

 

It took me less than 5 minutes to find it and read the relevant sections.

 

In the AIP there is a contents page - it is easily followed to the air space designations which is even easier to go to the PRD section and in about three pages the answers tumble out in front of you.

 

 

[Roundsounds]

As much as I agree with you that on some things the rules are impossible to follow or navigate - this is not one of them.It took me less than 5 minutes to find it and read the relevant sections.

In the AIP there is a contents page - it is easily followed to the air space designations which is even easier to go to the PRD section and in about three pages the answers tumble out in front of you.

Although I tend to agree and I have spent my entire working life working within / teaching these rules. They are a complete horses bum when you stand back and look at them objectively. As an exercise, try explaining the purpose of the various references, Act, CAR, CASR, CAO, CAAP, AC, AIP, ERSA etc to a non-aviator who is interested in learning to fly.

Then explain where to find the airspace rules relating to a local flight for the holder of an RPL with Nav endorsement from a class D metro airport.

 

 

[Jaba-who]

Although I tend to agree and I have spent my entire working life working within / teaching these rules. They are a complete horses bum when you stand back and look at them objectively. As an exercise, try explaining the purpose of the various references, Act, CAR, CASR, CAO, CAAP, AC, AIP, ERSA etc to a non-aviator who is interested in learning to fly.Then explain where to find the airspace rules relating to a local flight for the holder of an RPL with Nav endorsement from a class D metro airport.

I agree with you on all those. As I said in the opening line in my response to Nev. . Not trying to defend the indefensible.

Just happens that this topic is easily found and is explained. One of the few times I have looked for something and found it without tearing of hair and gnashing of teeth!

 

 

[ian00798]

Without wanting to sound like a smartasre - what is so hard to understand about the AIP reference provided?

Where is the super triple like button when you need it

 

 

[aro]

The AIP outlines it all in ENR 1.4 sections 5 -All in absolute black and white - restricted RA1 means when it's active it's Class C.

So exactly which words in ENR 1.4 section 5 spell it out in black and white? I can't see anything in there.

 

"will receive a service equivalent to that of Class C" does not mean it is class C."Will receive a service equivalent to that of" does not mean "is". In fact, it pretty much confirms "is not", otherwise it would not need to be specified.

 

 

[Pearo]

I regularly fly through active mil airspace and its similar to Charlie airspace. Read ERSA for the finer details, but you call up clearance or what ever frequency is stated in ERSA to get your code (unless you have already have a code, in which case you will most likely be getting onward clearance organised by BNE or MEL Centre). You will either then get clearance or handed off to the approach/departure/tower controller for clearance depending on how busy they are or how the local procedures work.

 

Worth noting, I am GA not RAAus, however I had an RPL with endorsements prior to my PPL. Also I dont fly RAAus aircraft, so perhaps someone can qualify the legalities of flying non VH registered aircraft in controlled airspace.

 

The biggest gotcha for MIL airpsace is inactive becoming active. NOTAMS is useless for this and therefore you cant trust your EFB (Oz-Runways etc.). Always request the status from Brisbane Centre first.

 

The key for transiting MIL airspace is the same as for Class C and D, that is refer to ERSA for details.

 

 

[ian00798]

So exactly which words in ENR 1.4 section 5 spell it out in black and white? I can't see anything in there."will receive a service equivalent to that of Class C" does not mean it is class C."Will receive a service equivalent to that of" does not mean "is". In fact, it pretty much confirms "is not", otherwise it would not need to be specified.

Most, and by most I mean all, normal people would interpret that equivalent to means it requires the same procedures and qualifications as operating in civil class c airspace. I mean for gods sake, if you look at the chart for Amberley it's even marked as class C!

 

Perhaps instead of making up our own rules and creatively interpreting AIP to support stupidity we should just try following the rules? Although from half the people on here I would almost settle for just knowing they exist and where to find them.......

 

 

[nathan_c]

So exactly which words in ENR 1.4 section 5 spell it out in black and white? I can't see anything in there."will receive a service equivalent to that of Class C" does not mean it is class C."Will receive a service equivalent to that of" does not mean "is". In fact, it pretty much confirms "is not", otherwise it would not need to be specified.

That is just about the most flawed logic I have had the misfortune to read.

 

Can we please stop trying to bend words and find excuses to weasel our way into places we shouldn't be?

 

What ever happened to accepting the common sense behind the rules and leaving it at that? Without a controlled airspace endorsement, you are not allowed into controlled airspace. Simple. Clearly it's a difficult concept, but funnily enough regardless of the class of airspace, most restricted areas are controlled by controllers, therefore it's controlled airspace.

 

Some of the posts and misguided opinions on this forum alone are arguments enough against RA getting CTA access, let alone getting into the myriad of other problems with it.

 

 

[aro]

I mean for gods sake, if you look at the chart for Amberley it's even marked as class C!

If it's marked as class C then it is class C and RAA are not allowed in. I am referring to restricted areas in class G (and E).

 

That is just about the most flawed logic I have had the misfortune to read.

No, it is correct logic (and I do logic pretty much all day every day). You can

 

interpret that equivalent to mean

but I am looking at what it actually says - and I believe that is also what lawyers attempt to do.

You don't become something simply by providing equivalent services.

 

Without a controlled airspace endorsement, you are not allowed into controlled airspace.

There is no such thing as a controlled airspace endorsement for RAA, and no rule that says you are not allowed in controlled airspace. The actual rule is you are only allowed in class G and E airspace. Does a restricted area in class G stop being class G or E, is the question? And if so what is it?

 

Whether it is wise is a different question. It is obviously CASA policy that it shouldn't be allowed but it appears that whoever wrote the earlier version of CAO 95.55 (which did prevent flight in restricted areas) understood it better than the person who removed the reference to restricted airspace.

 

 

[ian00798]

There is no such thing as a controlled airspace endorsement for RAA

Exactly, so perhaps you should stay out or get an RPL and do it legally. Perhaps you can use your logic though and go for a burn through pine gap? Let me know how you go keeping your pilots certificate when your out of jail.

 

 

[KRviator]

So if you need a clearance to enter, and RAAus are not permitted to seek clearances* as we do not have a CTA Endo, just how are you planning on getting said clearance?

 

 

[aro]

RAAus are not permitted to seek clearances

No such rule.

 

 

[nathan_c]

If it's marked as class C then it is class C and RAA are not allowed in. I am referring to restricted areas in class G (and E).

There is no such thing as a controlled airspace endorsement for RAA, and no rule that says you are not allowed in controlled airspace. The actual rule is you are only allowed in class G and E airspace. Does a restricted area in class G stop being class G or E, is the question? And if so what is it?

 

Whether it is wise is a different question. It is obviously CASA policy that it shouldn't be allowed but it appears that whoever wrote the earlier version of CAO 95.55 (which did prevent flight in restricted areas) understood it better than the person who removed the reference to restricted airspace.

Actually, I think you will find there IS indeed a rule that says you are not allowed to fly in controlled airspace. If you would like to take a look at the current version of CAO 95.55, section 7.1 (d), states the aircraft may only fly in classes A, B, C or D airspaces (by definition: controlled airspace), and section 7.3 pretty clearly points out that you must hold a CASA part 61 flight crew licence with controlled airspace endorsements. Now that we have the actual rule you are operating under spelled out, we can put that one to bed.

 

Secondly, seeing as you wont take the AIP's wording of equivalence (which I feel like I dont need to point out by definition is the same as, or "equal in value, amount, function or meaning etc" if you want to get super technical about it), I will point you to the RA Aus ops manual which you are required to follow.

 

Section 4.06-3 states that: Restricted areas around military aerodromes become controlled airspace when activated and may only be entered by recreational pilots complying with specific criteria as outlined in CAO 95.32 and 95.55, upon receipt of a clearance.

 

If you dont want to follow AIP, follow the Ops manuals conclusion on restricted areas. Either way, the CAO says you cant be in there without a FCL, so im failing to see why this is even an argument...

 

 

[ian00798]

So if you need a clearance to enter, and RAAus are not permitted to seek clearances* as we do not have a CTA Endo, just how are you planning on getting said clearance?

100% correct, and I'm starting to feel like this is going to go around in circles, because no rule book can beat a total pig headed unwillingness to look facts in the face.

 

No such rule.

I'm pretty sure a civil aviation order counts as a rule, I mean that's generally what the word order means in that context, it's not a civil aviation suggestion....

 

 

[aro]

If you would like to take a look at the current version of CAO 95.55, section 7.1 (d), states the aircraft may only fly in classes A, B, C or D airspaces (by definition: controlled airspace)

Actually I referenced that in post #40, but A, B, C and D alone do not define controlled airspace. Controlled airspace is A, B, C, D and E (AIP ENR 1.2). RAA can fly in class E controlled airspace. CAO 95.55 no longer says anything about restricted areas.

 

you wont take the AIP's wording of equivalence

API doesn't say the airspace is equivalent, it says the service is equivalent. You choose to interpret service = airspace, but I don't see that as true. They could have said active restricted airspace is equivalent to class C if that was what they meant, but they did not.

 

Yes you are required to follow the ops manual, and it could have had something explicit about restricted areas, but it just points back to CAO 95.55.

 

I don't really GAF, I have a PPL but you are reading extra stuff in that isn't there. I have no issue if CASA change the regulations to prevent RAA in restricted areas, it might even be a good idea. But I see no existing rule. (But there may be something in other areas I haven't looked at...)

 

 

[aro]

I'm pretty sure a civil aviation order counts as a rule

The statement was "RAAus are not permitted to seek clearances". There is no such rule.

 

You can seek a clearance, if it is denied and you don't enter the airspace no rule has been broken.

 

If clearance is given and you enter class C or D the rule is broken when you enter the airspace, not when you request or receive the clearance.

 

 

[nathan_c]

Okay just to put everything out there, you are talking to two people (Ian and myself) who have a significantly better idea than most about what controlled airspace is and isnt, its literally our job to control it.

 

The reason it does not list Class E airspace in that document is because for VFR, it is not controlled airspace. For VFR it is uncontrolled, you do not require a clearance, therefore that is not a case of RAA flying in controlled airspace, please dont try and pretend that it is. Before the argument is made that AIP says class E is controlled, it also says VFR aircraft do not require a clearance to operate in it.

 

As for the ops manual being explicit, I thought the wording "Restricted areas around military aerodromes become controlled airspace when activated" was pretty clear? It points to the CAO in regards to pilots being allowed to enter but the wording about the airspace itself is pretty definitive.

 

If you really dont care, why are you arguing so hard about what appears to really only be about the way you read into equivalent service? The airspace is still controlled by a military controller, which means it has to be controlled airspace and its just trying to say expect Class C procedures (so you dont fly in expecting class D type control etc).

 

Trying to argue that the removal of one word or phrase in a document changes the entire intent of a document to allow exploitation of a privilege that doesnt exist for that class of pilot is not going to get any one anywhere, its just going to lead to re written documents that lock down or remove currently allowed procedures all because someone thought they could flaunt the wording of some rules.

 

 

[KRviator]

The statement was "RAAus are not permitted to seek clearances". There is no such rule.You can seek a clearance, if it is denied and you don't enter the airspace no rule has been broken.

 

If clearance is given and you enter class C or D the rule is broken when you enter the airspace, not when you request or receive the clearance.

Ok, I'll admit the "can't ask for clearance" was a poor choice of words on my part, is that what you want to hear?But, if you DO ask for a clearance through R421A, and it is granted, you are then obligated to obey that clearance, or you will be in breach of the CAR's, and soon as you enter R421A - as it is associated with hazards to other aircraft in flight, you are in breach of CAO95.55 7.1.e. Furthermore, the only special conditions published for R421A is for the VFR lane up the coast, anything else requires the approval of the administering authority. Good luck with that!

 

 

[Kununurra]

Ok.. I thought I was pretty clear - RESTRICTED - NOT CTR. The CTR was in fact recently removed.It is now R421A.

 

No point calling the tower - the dude in the tower can't overrule a CASA Regulation or an RAA requirement. So he or she could very well say... yeah.. go fly mate, squark 4265!! But that does not mean legally I am allowed to fly there.

 

I knew this thread would end up like it has, because I have already had the same discussions with local pilots that I know. Everyone seems to have a different answer. LOL! The worrying thing is - we should ALL know this inside out - and I don't, along with many others - and that's a worry.