The shiny new-look RAA?

[Happyflyer]

Well obviously you have not bothered to taken any notice at all.Part149 and Part103 have had their implementation dates postponed, so we have had to re write everything. Then to add some fun the goal posts had some wheels engineered into the design of them.

KP

So why have you had to re write everything just because the implementation date has changed?

 

 

[Mike Borgelt]

"Greed, power games, self promotion and empire building at the expense of the members and the core interest of the organisation. Yep, most of us just want to fly. We are not all millionaires, its why we fly ultralight. The joy of flying is soon shattered by Egotistical bureaucrats looking to make a name for themselves. Over regulation and "big brother " rules that are not needed.

 

How to stuff up a great organisation, privatise it, make it a corporation, disregard the cattle (sorry..members), give all the power to a small group and attempt top become a semi Government body. Death by regulation..."

 

You guys could be describing the GFA, only it isn't a company just an incorporated association. The group running it are just as determined to go with extra regulation that CASA would not require and make sure that any body else is kept away from the levers of power. About 15 years ago one President was heard to say "we can't have a voting system and democracy - the wrong people might get elected"

 

In a more recent case a serving president suddenly resigned to take up a position on the CASA Board. I'll leave it to your imagination as to what was going on the previous 2 years. yes, they did acquiesce to a CASA wish list and the bureaucracy increased noticeably.

 

I gather the CASA Part 149 stuff was meant to be all done and dusted but a non CASA lawyer pointed out that much of CASA's wish list was illegal.

 

CASA really is in the running for "World's most incompetent aviation regulator".

 

 

[Mike Borgelt]

Here's a point about Part 149: if the body that is a Part 149 organisation goes out of business you are screwed. Can't fly until another takes over - which could take months if not years. It also divides up the low end of of private aviation into mini CASAs and nobody knows what the other ones are doing. Safety information also does not flow. This is nuts.

 

I've said it before : It does not matter who administers the rules, it just matters what the rules are. Anyone who thinks by joining RAAus or GFA they are getting out from under CASA is sadly deluded. The rules have been rubber stamped by CASA in both cases.

 

We could just have CASA do the admin and the organisations can get on with promoting their activities, safety education etc. Just like the EAA in the US which has NO legal powers at all but works with the FAA to make sure the rules administered by the FAA aren't stupid or unnecessarily onerous.

 

 

[Keith Page]

So why have you had to re write everything just because the implementation date has changed?

Everything was compliant to Part149 and Part103 seeing the implementation was not happening manuals had to change to compensate.

KP.

 

 

[jetjr]

Im not seeing the secrecy etc accused here, any question ive askd has been clearly answered with reasoning

 

Theres no medical reform for RAA, plenty of things might happen or are stories amd rumour, but its largely driven directly from CASA. If you think we can argue or push back you’re deluded. We ALL fly at their pleasure (or not)

 

Maybe the organisation has changed by the makeup of the members. Sad for some for sure but the long time members carry the same weight and pay same fees as the others and theres thankfully lots of the new breed or bills wouldnt be paid.

 

Maybe RAA is doing what members want, just not the small group that comment here.

 

The plastic type airframes are those probably most now learned to fly in. Plenty have no interest in older types no doubt to their detriment.

 

Id suggest few build anymore and as LSA grows less and less service thier own either.

 

Change isnt good for everyone but it progresses with or without you.

 

 

[Geoff13]

Every now and then someone pops in hear drop a grenade, hints of better things to come, stirs the pot then pisses off.

 

Still no better things to come and to be quite honest I still get to go flying every weekend under the current system.

 

One must wonder what his agenda really is?

 

 

[Keith Page]

Every now and then someone pops in hear drop a grenade, hints of better things to come, stirs the pot then pisses off.Still no better things to come and to be quite honest I still get to go flying every weekend under the current system.

One must wonder what his agenda really is?

No doubt Geoff you are aiming at me that is OK I can handle that, only a small time swipe at me. When one stands up to be counted that is the normal treatment but we will move on to all those things which are at play and not too many get to have them highlighted.

However have you looked into the truth behind the Jabiru issue? When you have time go and get your angle on the manoeuvring.

 

The big one ---- the lobbying to get enough votes to change the structure of RAAus to a company from what we knew. Delve about and get that information you will be shocked.

 

What about the China flying schools? RAAus had the opportunity to have some of that business but egos got in the way.

 

There are three for you to contemplate, Geoff. Just a disgrace more members are not told.

 

I try and get people thinking about what is going on but most look at the situation for holes and reply. Not to many look to understand what is happening.

 

KP.

 

 

[SDQDI]

While I don’t mind people being ‘enlightened’ with the ‘facts’ I think your circumstances tarnish your message Keith.

 

Maybe it would be different if you were just a member of ELAAA but being the director (going off memory so could be wrong!) it doesn’t come across well having you throw dirt at RAA.

 

 

[turboplanner]

No doubt Geoff you are aiming at me that is OK I can handle that, only a small time swipe at me. When one stands up to be counted that is the normal treatment but we will move on to all those things which are at play and not too many get to have them highlighted.However have you looked into the truth behind the Jabiru issue? When you have time go and get your angle on the manoeuvring.

The big one ---- the lobbying to get enough votes to change the structure of RAAus to a company from what we knew. Delve about and get that information you will be shocked.

 

What about the China flying schools? RAAus had the opportunity to have some of that business but egos got in the way.

 

There are three for you to contemplate, Geoff. Just a disgrace more members are not told.

 

I try and get people thinking about what is going on but most look at the situation for holes and reply. Not to many look to understand what is happening.

 

KP.

All of those things are searchable Keith; the problem is they haven't looked; they haven't questioned; and until someone with guts and determination comes along and shows some leadership, nothing is going to change

 

 

[jetjr]

So what are the facts? Shouldnt be secret?

 

On all three topics were discussed to death here and no evidence presented.

 

Lobbying to get a major proposal through.......expected Id have thought or a vocal minoroty would have sunk the proposal. Called conviction in your ideas.

 

Jabiru, the problem is Jabiru hanging customers out to dry and CASA treatment of the problem.

 

Whats the RAA got to do with commercial training? Lost opportunity at best.

 

 

[Yenn]

I have been watching all the goings on about this subject and my summary would be that CASA is just pulling the puppet strings.

 

They want to keep the bodies running aviation on tenterhooks.

 

This is obvious with their dealings with ELAAA. They produced their new requirements and when ELAAA complied, they said no go, you have to comply with the old requirements as the new ones are not approved yet. I expect that when ELAAA are compliant CASA will make changes again.

 

At least one CASA person talks up the new organisation wanting to run the sport, but I have also heard that he has also said that he was against change.

 

It all comes down to can we trust anyone in any position of responsibility?

 

 

[robinsm]

While I don’t mind people being ‘enlightened’ with the ‘facts’ I think your circumstances tarnish your message Keith.Maybe it would be different if you were just a member of ELAAA but being the director (going off memory so could be wrong!) it doesn’t come across well having you throw dirt at RAA.

I dont think he is throwing dirt at RAA. I think he is just reflecting the opinions of a large number of us about the commercialisation, over regulated, used to be enjoyable, sport that relied on something called personal responsibility. I am not a member of ELAAA.

 

 

[octave]

I dont think he is throwing dirt at RAA. I think he is just reflecting the opinions of a large number of us about the commercialisation, over regulated, used to be enjoyable, sport that relied on something called personal responsibility. I am not a member of ELAAA.

I have been flying since 1988. Started on Thrusters then Gazelles Pioneers and Tecnam. I have never owned an aircraft and don't intend to. My fortnightly experience of hiring an aircraft has not really changed for me in any negative way in this time. I am not sure what it is in a practical sense I am expected to be angry or unhappy about.

 

 

[SDQDI]

I dont think he is throwing dirt at RAA. I think he is just reflecting the opinions of a large number of us about the commercialisation, over regulated, used to be enjoyable, sport that relied on something called personal responsibility. I am not a member of ELAAA.

I too dislike the over regulation and the lack of personal responsibility but the trouble is Keith seems to be saying that is all RAA's fault and hints that ELAAA won't have any of that and it is just a tad annoying.

I am all for Keith and the ELAAA to go ahead and I wish them all the best but I can't stand the pokes and digs which 'seem' to be aimed to sow discord amongst RAA members for their own personal gain.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

... I am not sure what it is in a practical sense I am expected to be angry or unhappy about.

Well said, Octave!

I was involved with the "rebels" who forced the Queenbeyan meeting. I've tried to follow governance issues for years and would love the current group of dissidents to clearly (and briefly) explain their case.

 

 

[facthunter]

SDQDI, I also want the ELAAA to go ahead, but I'd rather have the RAAus not go for becoming a copy of the GA... BIG won't be better for us and IF it doesn't protect us. ie behaves as a de facto CASA....... WHO does act in OUR (collective) interests.?? As for taking over GA plus most other "activity" we will all be in aged care (or dead, Preferred) before that's settled. We might represent a large number of individuals on paper, but the aspirations of this management are a bit far fetched if they think others won't put up some considerable opposition to the TAIL wagging the DOG. and the lack of real aviation expertise affecting the direction of the organisation. The current membership will be fickle. What residual loyalty will remain? Hard to tell but I wouldn't rely on it. There will be genuine and deserved resentment if this process sells us out. I feel I have the right to express my personal views . I've been in Aviation since the late 50's (Powered models before that) . I'm a passionate supporter of what RAAus was trying to be. THAT was NEVER going to be a BIG show if it stuck to it's simple and affordable mantra. So What? I've flown GA charter, Para drops, some gliding, Airlines,. Instructed AUF /RAAus. I don't try to make RAAUs into a version of airlines. or any other thing.

 

Keith IS a PART of ELAAA and has stated THAT FACT which compromises his ability to criticise RAAus and remain credible.( I've brought this up before).. It could justifiably be alleged he would have a vested interest in making out the RAAus was worse than it is/was. I have NO involvement with ELAAA or similar and IF I ever do I will make that fact known when I make comments here.. I do try to be objective. What is happening is VERY important to me and I know it is to many others. I know a lot who are just walking away from aviation in disgust.. It's probably a quite sensible reaction. Nev

 

 

[Happyflyer]

No doubt Geoff you are aiming at me that is OK I can handle that, only a small time swipe at me. When one stands up to be counted that is the normal treatment but we will move on to all those things which are at play and not too many get to have them highlighted.However have you looked into the truth behind the Jabiru issue? When you have time go and get your angle on the manoeuvring.

 

The big one ---- the lobbying to get enough votes to change the structure of RAAus to a company from what we knew. Delve about and get that information you will be shocked.

 

What about the China flying schools? RAAus had the opportunity to have some of that business but egos got in the way.

 

There are three for you to contemplate, Geoff. Just a disgrace more members are not told.

 

I try and get people thinking about what is going on but most look at the situation for holes and reply. Not to many look to understand what is happening.

 

KP.

Keith, can you, in plain English, with no riddles, winks or nudges tell us what RAAus did that was so bad in relation to Jabiru, tell us what we should be shocked about in relation to the RAAus restructure and tell us how RAAUs should have been involve in training Chinese airline pilots?

If you've got no facts or are not prepared to present them perhaps silence would be a smarter option.

 

 

[Keith Page]

Oh! What a noise I have generated by just mentioning "watch out".

 

SDQDI you are very sensitive as when I mentioned the "watch out" you go straight into saying ELAAA is in self promotion I hasten to inform you,

 

"Your suspicions are incorrect" It will be nothing more pleasing for me to see aviation grow in Australia. That is my aim and we do not want it pulled down with regulation and self promotion.

 

Your comments to me are a good example of:- Listening to comment not to understand.

 

SDQDI please educate me, How do you want me to convey, "Watch out"? It is obvious in your eyes I am doing it wrong. Over to you now.

 

I was very interested here Turbo mention - few are lazy and not go for a look. Yes all is out there -- not quite -- there is some info held back by the quiet minority.

 

There are quiet a number people on this forum who are up to speed of what is going on, and they are just watching.

 

The big problem is self promotion and egos.

 

For some research delve into those three points I put into a reply to Geoff. Do not be happy with one answer get a cross section of views and from many areas.

 

I am encouraged to see some people on this forum are thinking about the situation and not go into the ELAAA "Self promotion mode".

 

For a bit of enlightenment go back to some things what Rod Birrell was mentioning before the vote for change.

 

Any of them fit now?

 

KP.

 

 

[Keith Page]

Keith, can you, in plain English, with no riddles, winks or nudges tell us what RAAus did that was so bad in relation to Jabiru, tell us what we should be shocked about in relation to the RAAus restructure and tell us how RAAUs should have been involve in training Chinese airline pilots?If you've got no facts or are not prepared to present them perhaps silence would be a smarter option.

I will not answer or expand on those points on a public forum. I have said, too much already.

 

If ever I am put before a court of law I will be able answer and expand on all, the information is not flimsy. If ever that happens that day I will not be operating with riddles, winks, nudges - will be facts.

 

Just imagine if some of those facts got on this forum the mind boggles as to where that information will end up and of course the twisting.

 

As Turbo said it is mostly out there only needs researching.

 

I resent the remark "silence is the smarter option" there are those here who can put the jig saw together without having it all spelt out to them.

 

(I have facts and they are not being shared on an open forum)

 

KP.

 

 

[octave]

Oh! What a noise I have generated by just mentioning "watch out".SDQDI you are very sensitive as when I mentioned the "watch out" you go straight into saying ELAAA is in self promotion I hasten to inform you,

"Your suspicions are incorrect" It will be nothing more pleasing for me to see aviation grow in Australia. That is my aim and we do not want it pulled down with regulation and self promotion.

 

Your comments to me are a good example of:- Listening to comment not to understand.

 

SDQDI please educate me, How do you want me to convey, "Watch out"? It is obvious in your eyes I am doing it wrong. Over to you now.

 

I was very interested here Turbo mention - few are lazy and not go for a look. Yes all is out there -- not quite -- there is some info held back by the quiet minority.

 

There are quiet a number people on this forum who are up to speed of what is going on, and they are just watching.

 

The big problem is self promotion and egos.

 

For some research delve into those three points I put into a reply to Geoff. Do not be happy with one answer get a cross section of views and from many areas.

 

I am encouraged to see some people on this forum are thinking about the situation and not go into the ELAAA "Self promotion mode".

 

For a bit of enlightenment go back to some things what Rod Birrell was mentioning before the vote for change.

 

Any of them fit now?

 

KP.

Keith, I am baffled as to why when vague assertions are made and clarification asked for the answer is always (in my mind condescending) you have to search for this yourself, For example, earlier you said this

 

However have you looked into the truth behind the Jabiru issue? When you have time go and get your angle on the manoeuvring.

How do I actually search for"truth" and "maneuvering" and why for goodness sake can't you be more specific? In short, my problem is that every few months these vague assertions are made, the person making assertions seem never to be specific. To be clear although I have been happily flying since 1988 and continue to do so If I am given evidence of wrongdoing or illegal activity I will be there with you screaming for change, I have not come across anything yet, why not prove me wrong and give me some damning evidence that I can really get my teeth into.

 

OK whilst typing this Keith you made another post saying that you could not say more publically. I fully understand that there could be legal risks to making public assertions but you could at least share your evidence privately. Surely you can understand that it is unreasonable to suggest that we take on board the idea that RAAUS are evil but you can't even suggest where one might find the evidence.

 

 

[Kiwi]

I will not answer or expand on those points on a public forum. I have said, too much already.KP.

 

 

[gandalph]

I will not answer or expand on those points on a public forum. I have said, too much already.If ever I am put before a court of law I will be able answer and expand on all, the information is not flimsy. If ever that happens that day I will not be operating with riddles, winks, nudges - will be facts.

Just imagine if some of those facts got on this forum the mind boggles as to where that information will end up and of course the twisting.

 

As Turbo said it is mostly out there only needs researching.

 

I resent the remark "silence is the smarter option" there are those here who can put the jig saw together without having it all spelt out to them.

 

(I have facts and they are not being shared on an open forum)

 

KP.

Classic Keith!

If what you say is true, would you not be wiser to keep your powder dry?

 

It could be seen by some that all you ARE willing to share here is innuendo. By doing that you risk damaging your credibility, at least in this forum.

 

 

[turboplanner]

deleted...start of a personal attack...mod

 

 

[Geoff13]

No doubt Geoff you are aiming at me that is OK I can handle that, only a small time swipe at me. When one stands up to be counted that is the normal treatment but we will move on to all those things which are at play and not too many get to have them highlighted.However have you looked into the truth behind the Jabiru issue? When you have time go and get your angle on the manoeuvring.

 

The big one ---- the lobbying to get enough votes to change the structure of RAAus to a company from what we knew. Delve about and get that information you will be shocked.

 

What about the China flying schools? RAAus had the opportunity to have some of that business but egos got in the way.

 

There are three for you to contemplate, Geoff. Just a disgrace more members are not told.

 

I try and get people thinking about what is going on but most look at the situation for holes and reply. Not to many look to understand what is happening.

 

KP.

Just remember the PM you sent me some time ago Keith which basically proves my point.

 

 

[gandalph]

[deleted...keep off the personal attacks...mod