The shiny new-look RAA?

[turboplanner]

It suddenly gets pretty good after an incident though.

 

 

[turboplanner]

This CTA stuff gives CASA a chance to impose many more requirements generally and few will be exempt from the push. More and more complexity and cost.... I DID tell you so. Be wary of what you wish for. You have a management that wants to "grow", rather than stick to it's values. U/L's are off the radar. You are now the NEW GA, but it's far from over. I can't see the other sections of non "commercial transport" flying going along with a take over by the RAAus. They haven't been consulted. That would be the tail wagging the dog for them. RAAus has some numbers of people, but not the depth of involvement in aviation (which shows). CASA doesn't have it either. They are an authoritarian bureaucracy of Lawyer types intent primarily, on covering their @r$e, even if it means killing off low cost flying. Nev

Do you mean CASA would think up new rules over and above what’s applied to PPL, or do you mean all RPC would have to lift to the standard of PPL (= nothing new)

[M61A1]

It suddenly gets pretty good after an incident though.

You keep telling yourself that....

[spacesailor]

Whats all the debate over L2 inspectors having to get higher qualifications

 

In my UK days when the helmet laws became compulsory a few riders died of broken necks, (no cleaning up of brain mater thou) & is death better than quadriplegia, or being in a vegetable state forever-after.

 

quick & painless verses years of torment,( friends son is in that state after riding into an unlit skip bin at night). his dads words in that paragraph.

 

VH experimental, are they allowed to modify their aircraft?.

 

spacesailor

 

 

[turboplanner]

You keep telling yourself that....

I don’t really care; some people aren’t worth helping.

[planesmaker]

Yes if u built it

 

 

[M61A1]

I don’t really care; some people aren’t worth helping.

That's the most realistic concept I've heard in a while.Now, if only our regulators could grasp that one simple idea.

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

I just want to be left unmolested to be free. Yes I will take the legal responsibility for anybody I hurt or whose property I damage. What makes me angry is the idea of paying bureaucrats to treat me like a fool and bully me using the excuse that they are doing it for my own safety. Well I'm sick of their safety.

 

 

[facthunter]

The safety does improve as a result of their imposed restrictions. Fewer people fly..If you are not affecting others to any great extent what YOU do should be more related to your own choice rather than what the rest of the world thinks is the ultimate achievable safety. Knowing what you are doing is the best process for improved performance. (Building , repairing or flying it). Nev

 

 

[APenNameAndThatA]

I just want to be left unmolested to be free. Yes I will take the legal responsibility for anybody I hurt or whose property I damage. What makes me angry is the idea of paying bureaucrats to treat me like a fool and bully me using the excuse that they are doing it for my own safety. Well I'm sick of their safety.

Are you able to give some examples?

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

Yep, I can give you one of several examples APen.

 

Consider the refinishing of gliders. When I bought my first Libelle, it came with a carry-box with spare glass and gel-coat for minor repairs.

 

These days, to put a bit of gel coat on a glider is " a major repair" and really the province of commercial operators. And who are the police to make sure that I don't do anything "unsafe?" well I suggest CASA bureaucrats.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Yep, I can give you one of several examples Apen.Consider the refinishing of gliders. When I bought my first Libelle, it came with a carry-box with spare glass and gel-coat for minor repairs.These days, to put a bit of gel coat on a glider is " a major repair" and really the province of commercial operators. And who are the police to make sure that I don't do anything "unsafe?" well I suggest CASA bureaucrats.

Isn’t GFA a Self Administering Aviaion Organisation?

[Bruce Tuncks]

Want another example APen?

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

Nope, turbs, the GFA is subservient to CASA. They have to keep CASA happy with how they treat their members. One example is how GFA were forced to employ an extra clerical person just to satisfy CASA requirements for information from GFA files. It cost the membership an extra salary for no benefit to the members.

 

 

[M61A1]

Isn’t GFA a Self Administering Aviaion Organisation?

I can see where you want to go with that....

Yes the GFA is "self administering, as is RAA. The issue as I see it is that they tend to make the rules tighter than required so that they can say to their regulator, " look we're exceeding you requirements, aren't we great". It is exactly the same problem with quality and safety systems. Instead of meeting the requirements, some dill has to go and exceed them at great cost, both financially and in manpower.

 

This tends to snowball, as the regulator, says "great job, we should take on these ideas" next thing, they are regulations, and the quality, safety and self administering organisations are out there trying to exceed them yet again....and around it goes.

 

I've been in the industry long enough to see what's going on, and these people wonder why it's dying out.

 

 

[coljones]

Nope, turbs, the GFA is subservient to CASA. They have to keep CASA happy with how they treat their members. One example is how GFA were forced to employ an extra clerical person just to satisfy CASA requirements for information from GFA files. It cost the membership an extra salary for no benefit to the members.

The self administering organisations are democratic and can be changed.

[coljones]

The self administering organisations are democratic and can be changed.

Kasper, I didn't say it was easy so your funny is appropriate. In view of your efforts in the past, Edvard Munch's “The Scream” would be a more appropriate like as it would be a sought after like for quite a few others.

[turboplanner]

Nope, turbs, the GFA is subservient to CASA. They have to keep CASA happy with how they treat their members. One example is how GFA were forced to employ an extra clerical person just to satisfy CASA requirements for information from GFA files. It cost the membership an extra salary for no benefit to the members.

GA IS A Self Administering Organisation. Let's not go down the path of pedalling deliberate untruths; not only that, but one of the members on this forum gave a very good summary of what the problems are and what the causes are, and its up to the GFA members to sort out information management. Database information can be automatically forwarded these days.

For the other people who didn't understand the basics of our industry, which have been in place now, for almost a generation, these are the Self Administering Organisations.

 

CASA's authority is spelled out in the legislation; that's as far as they can go with demands

 

If SAO officials run their own agendas, blaming CASA, and the members are too lazy to investigate, that's their fault.

 

I know Kasper is an exception and his treatment has been appalling, given his detailed knowledge, but where have his fellow members been? Where was his support? Look in the mirror.

 

• Australian Ballooning Federation (ABF)
   
   
   
  
• Australian Parachute Federation Ltd (APF)
   
   
   
  
• Australian Skydiving Association (ASA)
   
   
   
  
• Australian Sport Rotorcraft Association (ASRA)
   
   
   
  
• Australian Warbirds Association Limited (AWAL)
   
   
   
  
• Gliding Federation of Australia (GFA)
   
   
   
  
• Hang Gliding Federation of Australia (HGFA)
   
   
   
  
• Model Aircraft Association of Australia (MAAA)
   
   
   
  
• Recreational Aviation Australia (RA-Aus)
   
   
   
  
• Sport Aircraft Association of Australia (SAAA)
   
   
   
  

 

 

 

 

[kasper]

 

But do you think the two Michaels would take it as management advice?

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

I'm going to break an important convention which is to NOT refer to WW2, but I reckon the German prison camps were " self administering organizations" in your terms turbs.

 

I don't think there is any way the members can influence things with voting patterns. The GFA has gone down the path of pleasing CASA by doing even more than CASA demands with the effect of making gliding much more expensive than it needs to be.

 

But we all saw what happened to the old RAAus when they did less than CASA demanded. So both appeasement and defiance have been tried, with appeasement winning but costly.

 

The root problem is in having an all-powerful bureaucracy charged with aviation safety without it having any responsibility for the overall well-being of the aviation sector. This is not the fault of any group of aviation members.

 

 

[SDQDI]

If you seriously think that we, as RAA flyers, are as hard done by as allied POWs or even slightly comparable then I think you are in a different reality to me.

 

 

[Jim McDowall]

If you seriously think that we, as RAA flyers, are as hard done by as allied POWs or even slightly comparable then I think you are in a different reality to me.

The point Bruce was trying to make, I think, is that we are all captive to our respective SAAO's. In NZ there are at least 3 Part 149 SAAO's that your have the choice of for under 600kg aeroplanes - if you dont like one you can move to another. There is remarkable variation in their ops/tech requirements which probably means NZCAA is not too bothered about the category - just give them some paperwork that fits the bill and move on?The real reason that Part 149 has not yet been implemented in Australia is CASA and the SAAO's have worked out how to preserve their monopolies. Meanwhile ELAAA, a fee for service organisation (ie parallel to GA) cant get into the game.

 

So why is CASA trying to advantage one organisation over another?

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

I am not comparing ourselves with POW's. I am asserting that the "self administering organizations" are not really autonomous at all, subject as they are to CASA.

 

Jim, do you know more on the ELAAA? I have wondered what has happened there.

 

 

[turboplanner]

I'm going to break an important convention which is to NOT refer to WW2, but I reckon the German prison camps were " self administering organizations" in your terms turbs.

An emotional analogy, but it doesn't have any relevence.

 

I don't think there is any way the members can influence things with voting patterns.

There is an Act which allows recreational aviators to fly with some exemptions from CASA regulations. Members can ensure their officials don't incur higher costs and more complications.Have a read of that ACT; it will be a lot simpler than the spider webs of what you are being forced to conform with un-necessarily.

 

The GFA has gone down the path of pleasing CASA by doing even more than CASA demands with the effect of making gliding much more expensive than it needs to be.

The GFA has gone down a path because of the people who sent it down that path. It has nothing to do with CASA. It was explained very well on this forum, it can be self-fixed any time a group, or reasonable numbers, wants to do something about it.

 

But we all saw what happened to the old RAAus when they did less than CASA demanded.

CASA wasn't out there making unreasonable demands, people were failing to do what their own organisation's structure required.As far as I know, I was the only person to ask CASA for the details of the Audit. I received page by page details of transgressions - 186 in all

 

It was routine; the data needed fixing; it was fixed; it shouldn't have happened in the first place.

 

So both appeasement and defiance have been tried, with appeasement winning but costly.

I notice you don't mention negotiation. Perhaps that was where the mistakes were made. CASA cannot legally exceed what's laid down in the ACT.

 

As I've mentioned, the bureaucracy's power is limited by legislation; if people don't take the time to find out what the powers are limited to that's their problem.Australian governments practise a "User Pays" philosophy wherever possible; we are not a Communist Country, so there is no obligation to be responsible for the well-being of any sector; it's up to the people of that sector. Some sectors thrive and expand; others slowly die, only to be saved at the last minute by new blood or re-branding, or adapting to the demographics of the community; these definitely are things the leadership officials can do something about.

 

[turboplanner]

GA IS A Self Administering Organisation.

#343 Sorry, typo, GFA is a self administering organisation