The shiny new-look RAA?

[robinsm]

Interesting topic, but alluding to a "conspiracy" or some such over Jabiru then not supplying the info to back it up is a pointless rumour gathering exercise. I would not have a clue what the problem was, and I am not in a position to "get in the know". Silly thing to do, make a statement then refuse to supply proof, makes it a rumour only. Sorry Keith, statements like that without stating the proof are pointless and do you case a disservice.

 

 

[Oscar]

The impenetrable suggestion that RAA somehow 'conspired' to exacerbate the Jabiru situation ( if indeed that is WHAT is being suggested; I find it hard to determine what has been suggested, in the dogged resistance to providing any sort of 'evidence', or even a hint, of 'facts') is a load of hogwash.

 

A general indication of the efforts RAA made to try to get CASA to listen to sense, is contained in the following: https://www.raa.asn.au/storage/response-to-dr-aleck-june-2016-jabiru-instrument.pdf. That is a very considered and careful letter; earier responses by RAA, in particular by Michael Moncke, were considerably stronger in their denunciation of the CASA action. They are discoverable.

 

Those who tend to place any credence in KP's uttering, should perhaps avail themselves of the opportunity to seek a response from Jabiru regarding whether it feels it was in any way 'let down' by RAA action. If in doubt, it is always a good idea to seek out the information from a reputable source, and Jabiru management (Rod Stiff or Sue Woods) would fall into that category.

 

In the interests of further information, KP should provide us all with a detailed explanation of what action his organisation would have taken in the situation that RAA was placed? It is not justified to simply throw out accusations of 'not good enough', without at least providing an outline of what WOULD have been good enough. There can be no possible legal consequences of expressing one's own view of what was required, and that would at least present to us a picture of the proficiency and realistic understanding of what we could expect from ELAAA.

 

Over to you, Keith, to lay your cards on the table.

 

 

[SDQDI]

SDQDI please educate me, How do you want me to convey, "Watch out"? It is obvious in your eyes I am doing it wrong. Over to you now.

Well Keith take this next post as an example.

 

You have told us basically nothing yet here you tell us "I have said too much already" but then say if you ever get put before a court of law that you will be able to use facts.

 

I personally think (and this could be legally wrong!) that you would be better off stating facts here on this forum than insinuating wrongdoings by RAA or any individual.

 

Saying you won't give us facts because they could be "twisted" comes across as if you don't trust that the facts will even support your argument.

 

Lastly if you aren't happy to share facts or at least point people to a difinitive source then what advantage is it to anyone to throw random accusations?

 

I will not answer or expand on those points on a public forum. I have said, too much already.If ever I am put before a court of law I will be able answer and expand on all, the information is not flimsy. If ever that happens that day I will not be operating with riddles, winks, nudges - will be facts.

Just imagine if some of those facts got on this forum the mind boggles as to where that information will end up and of course the twisting.

 

As Turbo said it is mostly out there only needs researching.

 

I resent the remark "silence is the smarter option" there are those here who can put the jig saw together without having it all spelt out to them.

 

(I have facts and they are not being shared on an open forum)

 

KP.

[facthunter]

I've tried to point out the "conflict of Interest" in this.. Keith has done nothing positive to advance the credibility of ELAAA by these critical posts in my view.. If I criticise the RAAus it will be on specific issues. If I praise something they do it will be the same way. It's NO secret the NEW GA idea doesn't have my support. The truth is that the RAAus is all you have or go GA. IF the CASA is trying to palm off GA, that adds uncertainty to a pastime /industry that needs certainty for investment. as well as keeping people flying for peanuts. er cheaply...Nev

 

 

[bull]

Oh the BS and drivel brigade are hard at defending the new Ga[RAA] that has destroyed ULTRALIGHT flying in Australia , and the ex GA mob pushing for more weight and cta access and Cessna,s in the shed etc are "'flying ''out of the closets on this post .Very very sad scenario for RAA aka AUF to have become and it will only get worse the way they are going. Ive never held back my disgust at RAA for what has happened to ""affordable fun flying''''in Australia and the dreams of many many young men and woman [who where not born with a silver spoon in their mouth to fly] has been crushed by the takeover of something that was very special ,very accessable and a whole heap of fun, and has been turned into THIS......, BY THE MOB who want to fly into cta with their old 172 but want to fly under the same rules as those pesky AUF fella,s,,,,,,,,Aaaaahhhhhhhhhhhh drives me nuts..................

 

 

[coljones]

Oh the BS and drivel brigade are hard at defending the new Ga[RAA] that has destroyed ULTRALIGHT flying in Australia , and the ex GA mob pushing for more weight and cta access and Cessna,s in the shed etc are "'flying ''out of the closets on this post .Very very sad scenario for RAA aka AUF to have become and it will only get worse the way they are going. Ive never held back my disgust at RAA for what has happened to ""affordable fun flying''''in Australia and the dreams of many many young men and woman [who where not born with a silver spoon in their mouth to fly] has been crushed by the takeover of something that was very special ,very accessable and a whole heap of fun, and has been turned into THIS......, BY THE MOB who want to fly into cta with their old 172 but want to fly under the same rules as those pesky AUF fella,s,,,,,,,,Aaaaahhhhhhhhhhhh drives me nuts..................

I'm not sure what the rules are but maybe if you own a bit of dirt and you fly below 300 feet you can do whatever you like - just a thought. Outside that space and you are playing in someone else's space and you start needing to play by their rules.

 

 

[bull]

I'm not sure what the rules are but maybe if you own a bit of dirt and you fly below 300 feet you can do whatever you like - just a thought. Outside that space and you are playing in someone else's space and you start needing to play by their rules.

G,day Col, yer probably right there mate, anyway, whens your new 190 knot plastic fantastic arrive,or have you decided to buy a cirrus and get it RAAregoed??Have fun with your fast transits between cities and such ,, but maybe just maybe you could probably think about the dreams of flying your mob have destroyed in this and the next generation of youth,because of making the AUF qausi ga for the rich boys mate??happy new year.................

 

 

[SDQDI]

So what is stopping someone building and flying a cheap rag and tube Bull? What rules have been changed that restrict grass roots flying?

 

Just because others like going faster in something more flash shouldn’t stop the grass roots flyers nor do I think the grass roots flyers should discourage those flashier types after all we are all airmen (and women).

 

Seeking for more freedoms across the board shouldn’t be frowned upon by anyone imo as long as it doesn’t cause more restrictions on the grass roots level.

 

Having said that we live in a society that seems to restrict more and more things to keep people ‘safe’ so we really need to stick together to make sure we keep it in check.

 

 

[bull]

So what is stopping someone building and flying a cheap rag and tube Bull? What rules have been changed that restrict grass roots flying?Just because others like going faster in something more flash shouldn’t stop the grass roots flyers nor do I think the grass roots flyers should discourage those flashier types after all we are all airmen (and women).

 

Seeking for more freedoms across the board shouldn’t be frowned upon by anyone imo as long as it doesn’t cause more restrictions on the grass roots level.

 

Having said that we live in a society that seems to restrict more and more things to keep people ‘safe’ so we really need to stick together to make sure we keep it in check.

The answer to your question ....................................COST..................................The ever increasing membership fees to pay salaries and executive junkets [ie narrominded]weekends and cta lobbing and lawyers fees etc etc etc,have killed it for the young fella who just wants to fly around on the weekend for the sheer frill and fun of flying,,,,What the AUF was created for in the first place.....................................

 

 

[SDQDI]

Well surely we can’t blame any material cost rise as being an RAA thing?

 

Just what exact cost is it that has made it so hard?

 

Membership and registration costs are very reasonable imo (have you noticed how much more expensive it is to register a car now than it was in the auf heyday?)

 

If it is just registration have you considered lobbying for a cheaper rego for home built? I think I recall the RAA sending out an email a year or so ago discussing that but could be mistaken.

 

Costs have gone up across the board in nearly every avenue of life, it would be foolish of us to think that flying could be immune from that.

 

 

[coljones]

The answer to your question ....................................COST..................................The ever increasing membership fees to pay salaries and executive junkets [ie narrominded]weekends and cta lobbing and lawyers fees etc etc etc,have killed it for the young fella who just wants to fly around on the weekend for the sheer frill and fun of flying,,,,What the AUF was created for in the first place.....................................

No one has settled the cost aspect of RAA. Perhaps the costs to run RAA are bound up in supporting the cheap end of the market with their non uniform designs and construction methods being built by a group whose skillset ranged from fantastic to abysmal out of materials of highly variable quality. I don't know the answer to the fair allocation of cost question and I think you are just guessing as well.

 

 

[bull]

Well surely we can’t blame any material cost rise as being an RAA thing?Just what exact cost is it that has made it so hard?

 

Membership and registration costs are very reasonable imo (have you noticed how much more expensive it is to register a car now than it was in the auf heyday?)

 

If it is just registration have you considered lobbying for a cheaper rego for home built? I think I recall the RAA sending out an email a year or so ago discussing that but could be mistaken.

 

Costs have gone up across the board in nearly every avenue of life, it would be foolish of us to think that flying could be immune from that.

Costs have gone up because of ever increasing demand for MORE,,from the exGA mob,,,,more weight / more access/fancy new public face for the big wigs etc

 

 

[bull]

No one has settled the cost aspect of RAA. Perhaps the costs to run RAA are bound up in supporting the cheap end of the market with their non uniform designs and construction methods being built by a group whose skillset ranged from fantastic to abysmal out of materials of highly variable quality. I don't know the answer to the fair allocation of cost question and I think you are just guessing as well.

( Edited...mod) Also maybe you should have a good look at the accident reports for the last 5 years or so , and you will find the major contributors to the accident rate have been ,...........fantastic well made and engineered factory built fantastic plastics (edited..mod)

 

 

[coljones]

Costs have gone up because of ever increasing demand for MORE,,from the exGA mob,,,,more weight / more access/fancy new public face for the big wigs etc

Your just guessing Bull!! Quite a lot of the costs of new weight and access initiatives are covered by free labour by board members, the balance would come from the membership and registration contributions of the fantastics flyers.

 

 

[bull]

[edited...play the topic not the person. ...mod)

 

 

[SDQDI]

Costs have gone up because of ever increasing demand for MORE,,from the exGA mob,,,,more weight / more access/fancy new public face for the big wigs etc

So nothing else has affected the cost rise?

You are dreaming if you believe that Bull. Convenient though it may be I still think it isn't that simple.

 

 

[kasper]

No one has settled the cost aspect of RAA. Perhaps the costs to run RAA are bound up in supporting the cheap end of the market with their non uniform designs and construction methods being built by a group whose skillset ranged from fantastic to abysmal out of materials of highly variable quality. I don't know the answer to the fair allocation of cost question and I think you are just guessing as well.

Well if there is NO EVIDENCE that the Home built non uniform airframes are killing people left right and centre WHAT justification exists for ANY tech office involvement beyond creating a minimal touch document to cover things like rego renewal forms and where to paint your rego numbers?

The only reason you logically need such a large and skilled/expensive tech office is the factory built ones that are out of factory support.

 

A minimal thin old school AUF tech was not needed for homebuilt airframes.

 

 

[bull]

Well if there is NO EVIDENCE that the Home built non uniform airframes are killing people left right and centre WHAT justification exists for ANY tech office involvement beyond creating a minimal touch document to cover things like rego renewal forms and where to paint your rego numbers?The only reason you logically need such a large and skilled/expensive tech office is the factory built ones that are out of factory support.

 

A minimal thin old school AUF tech was not needed for homebuilt airframes.

Well said kasper........

 

 

[SDQDI]

A minimal thin tech approach would probably have CASA grounding us all these days......... déjà vu?

 

 

[bull]

A minimal thin tech approach would probably have CASA grounding us all these days......... déjà vu?

Maybe only the shiny new high performance quasi ga aircraft would be grounded and the rest of us could go back to being fun flyers.....................oh and remember those well engineered factory built jabby things that where falling out of the sky like stunned mullets??? bloody shame about those thingy,s ah col,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

 

[kasper]

A minimal thin tech approach would probably have CASA grounding us all these days......... déjà vu?

Well if everyone in Canberra could take a chill pill and remember that 95.55 homebuilts were intended to be uncontrolled on design and construction with safety provided by pilot training and operational area limits then have a look at the past nearly 20 years of ops history for systemic errors in this form of control then CASA bloody well should be demanding RAAus unwind the controls that have been wrapped around the airframes and lower the overall complexity and costs ... then just walk gently over to the ops manager and chat about how to reinvigorate the pilot and club environments we used to have to support the intended route of safety control which is ops not tech.

 

 

[facthunter]

The BIG decay of the basics of the movement and problem started when a certain CASA CEO who was only RAAF and Airline Management backgrounded,, took a look and couldn't accept or condone a plane built of wood and doped cloth in your own garage. He freaked out (over -reacted)and we are still paying for it .

 

Not all ex GA people are against basic flying. Have I been posting in invisible ink for the last 12 years?. Yes I wish a weight increase for safety in construction reasons, but that's it. I've been open and consistent about that..

 

Complexity is the SEXY end of the movement. Where the action is. Europe has expensive high performing exotic "lightweight" planes. That's the way they do things there. Not everyone has the spare coin to buy these or wants to. fly a pocket rocket.

 

Your NEW management has gone for expansion and is keen taking over other aspects of the non airline spectrum it would appear. and access to CTA (a priority) aeros?, more pax, NVFR and who knows what else? All the GA baggage which is dying and won't be self funding. and doesn't want RAAus taking it over, either. Low cost will come second with that model. Extra training , more endorsements, more aircraft paperwork /inspections checking, Skills qualifications expire at 2 years and have to be retested . All starting to happen already. They may have management skills(not retested at 2 years as in aviation) but YOUR input is a complexity they don't really want . All the squabbling is avoided that way.. I don't blame them They want to get on with it.

 

Your management says "WE are the NEW GA". Ok if that's the case, is it a slow death for those who think like Bull and want to keep the feel and direction of the former AUF RAAus. I doubt the assertion "YOU can still build and fly one of those things if you want to" has much substance. The basic support won't be there. Nev

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

Maybe the RAAus just doesn't have the power to do things cheaply. I think it needs dedicated staff at head office to keep feeding CASA with answers to questions.

 

One day, after flying my plane for about ten years, my registration renewal was refused because there was only one photo of the fuselage numbers in some filing cabinet in Canberra. The cause of this was a CASA audit, not anything the RAAus did. So how about the theory that they are trying to keep costs down, but it is CASA that determines the costs ?

 

I think most CASA staff come from an organization where there is unlimited funding and unlimited time and no real work to do while waiting for WW3.

 

 

[nomadpete]

Unfortunately, Nev, our incoming "new blood" is of a generation that has no interest in ever building an aircraft. They are very unlikely to ever pick up a fraction of the general knowledge that most of us oldies take for granted. They don't have the attention span to commit to long term work toward a goal that is recreational. Worst of all they actually need the nanny state to look after them.

 

These people are our future. (Specifically the future of RAA).

 

Unfortunately our organisation is forced to evolve to cope with it. I don't like it but i accept the younger generation is indirectly moulding my future.

 

 

[facthunter]

There IS a difference. What one might call "attention span" seems limited. There's reasons for that WE had to make do with bugge r all, and were not subject to clever advertising and force fed credit. Manual skills are not taught much. Throw away Power tools for everything. Conspicuous consumerism goes in place of being a useful person to society, Communication, empathy and tolerance at low levels. Think like me or you're $#1t you complete Fw1t. I've had some good conversations on trains and trams with some younger folk. It's not them It's the environment we have allowed to develop that's at fault.. Nev