Bad Radio Procedures

[derekliston]

Went out to Warwick airfield this morning for a circuit or two, as I was on downwind on 27 for a full stop I heard a Piper Archer calling 10miles inbound, so I thought I would sit and watch some landings. She called joining crosswind for 27 and virtually nothing else in six circuits. Not one single downwind call, two turning base calls and that was all. I thought she might be a solo student but on the last circuit I heard the engine throttle back and she turned base at about the downwind threshold. I thought Ok, glide approach, no radio call and then as she turned final, a male voice, presumably an instructor transmitted as follows "Warwick traffic Archer (callsign) close approach for 27 Warwick" no notification of glide approach, no downwind call, no turning base or turning final. I thought that was pretty slack and probably a breach of radio etiquette if not the rules. I'll be interested to hear some opinions.

 

 

[ben87r]

If there wasn't any other traffic around not necessarily bad, too many variables without being there to judge. Certainly not required to call each leg of the circuit and the regs now say that all required calls to avoid a collision so no breach.

 

 

[derekliston]

If there wasn't any other traffic around not necessarily bad, too many variables without being there to judge. Certainly not required to call each leg of the circuit and the regs now say that all required calls to avoid a collision so no breach.

Interesting and probably true but I do like to hear at least a downwind call. If you have two aircraft not transmitting because they have not heard any other radio traffic then surely the potential for a collision exists?

 

 

[turboplanner]

Interesting and probably true but I do like to hear at least a downwind call. If you have two aircraft not transmitting because they have not heard any other radio traffic then surely the potential for a collision exists?

It does Derek, although if you are flying cross county, approaching an airfield, sometimes there are clues, but on the whole the see and be seen skid by CASA is likely to end in tears.

 

 

[ben87r]

Interesting and probably true but I do like to hear at least a downwind call. If you have two aircraft not transmitting because they have not heard any other radio traffic then surely the potential for a collision exists?

There is still a requirement for an inbound call and either taxi or entering can't remember which off the top of my head so any arriving or departing aircraft would be know at which point you're obliged to make all required calls.

 

Like I said without being there it's too difficult to judge personally. In saying that I would usually still report downwind myself.

 

This comes up quite often on here and there's two different approaches, those that use the radio a lot and those that refrain from unnecessary (in their opinion) calls. Both are usually complying with the regs.

 

 

[OzScot]

When I first got my certificate, one of my biggest concerns was other traffic and trying to keep track of where they were. Whilst it might be legal to only make minimal calls, it can result in low time or student pilots stressing about locations of other aircraft. I fly where sometimes gliders will join a left circuit with a right turn onto downwind or thermal just above circuit height with few calls. It's stressful to see a glider head on...more stressful if there are few calls!

 

Anyway, I guess my point is that I can understand why in busy airspace chatter should be minimal, but at quieter strips it just seems helpful to others to at least announce downwind (base is helpful for me too). Plus if people get used to not making calls, that might just become a habit that gets someone hurt. (My 2 cents)

 

 

[SSCBD]

Did you call clear of runway? Did he then know / assume no one else in the circuit? Personally I call downwind, base and finals

 

 

[derekliston]

When I first got my certificate, one of my biggest concerns was other traffic and trying to keep track of where they were. Whilst it might be legal to only make minimal calls, it can result in low time or student pilots stressing about locations of other aircraft. I fly where sometimes gliders will join a left circuit with a right turn onto downwind or thermal just above circuit height with few calls. It's stressful to see a glider head on...more stressful if there are few calls!Anyway, I guess my point is that I can understand why in busy airspace chatter should be minimal, but at quieter strips it just seems helpful to others to at least announce downwind (base is helpful for me too). Plus if people get used to not making calls, that might just become a habit that gets someone hurt. (My 2 cents)

Warwick has the gliders every weekend too and being a careful (read nervous) pilot and being retired and so able to fly on weekdays, I tend not to fly when they are around. They don't use their radios much usually and are bloody near invisible unless you see the sun glint as they turn!

 

 

[derekliston]

Did you call clear of runway? Did he then know / assume no one else in the circuit? Personally I call downwind, base and finals

I always call downwind, base and final also, then clear of runway. The other day there was a Cessna Citation flying touch and go circuits without radio calls. Now that could be a worry!

 

 

[Downunder]

I sat holding at runway XX ( taxiway at keys) and watched a cessna turn final, land and call "clear".

 

Made my "entering" call and 2 seconds later have an RV call late final.... no other calls before this.

 

I stopped, turned and looked but could not see it. Started thinking I'd miss heard the location, then over the trees it comes.

 

One of these pilots that does 5 mile circuits and 3 degree finals......so low I couldn't see him on approach.

 

Moral of the story.... expect the unexpected... just because you can't see anyone on final, doesn't mean there isn't.

 

 

[SSCBD]

I sat holding at runway XX ( taxiway at keys) and watched a cessna turn final, land and call "clear".Made my "entering" call and 2 seconds later have an RV call late final.... no other calls before this.

I stopped, turned and looked but could not see it. Started thinking I'd miss heard the location, then over the trees it comes.

 

One of these pilots that does 5 mile circuits and 3 degree finals......so low I couldn't see him on approach.

 

Moral of the story.... expect the unexpected... just because you can't see anyone on final, doesn't mean there isn't.

Must have been a A380 pilot. Some guys have a heavy, four engine fantasy, but flying bug smashers.

 

 

[Cosmick]

always make inbound call and joining call, if no other traffic that is sufficient. If circuit is busy 2 plus training, comings and goings, than make all calls. Always make taxi, entering and departure calls.

 

 

[derekliston]

always make inbound call and joining call, if no other traffic that is sufficient. If circuit is busy 2 plus training, comings and goings, than make all calls. Always make taxi, entering and departure calls.

On CTAF fields using 126.7 I'd probably agree with keeping calls to a minimum but at Warwick for example, with a discrete frequency, I'm happy to call downwind, base and final. Never know at what stage incoming traffic switch to that frequency.

 

 

[Yenn]

"close approach for 27 Warwick"

 

What the hell does that mean? Was the close approach on downwind, base or final and if so why not use the proper terminology.

 

I have been flying for half a century and never heard that call. It does not tell me where to expect to see traffic, which is surely what radio alerted see and avoid is all about.

 

 

[derekliston]

"close approach for 27 Warwick"What the hell does that mean? Was the close approach on downwind, base or final and if so why not use the proper terminology.

I have been flying for half a century and never heard that call. It does not tell me where to expect to see traffic, which is surely what radio alerted see and avoid is all about.

And that was presumably the instructor!!

 

 

[SDQDI]

Unless it was a misheard 'glide' approach? That would make the most sense. But I am all for getting worked up about it

 

 

[frank marriott]

When what I call (excessive rubbish) is being transmitted I still stick with post 12 and ignor the rest.

 

 

[Roundsounds]

Absolutely nothing wrong with this operation, assuming there were no other aircraft in the circuit.

 

Anyone else departing / arriving would make the appropriate calls which would alert the aircraft in the circuit and likely prompt further broadcasts from them. The growing trend for continuous radio babble is in fact reducing safety, not improving it. The regs and guidance regarding RT at non-towered airports is written the way it is deliberately. If there was a case / evidence for multiple calls / circuit or "as recommended" by the various "experts" teaching this poor behaviour CASA would mandate it.

 

 

[scre80]

When I first got my certificate, one of my biggest concerns was other traffic and trying to keep track of where they were. Whilst it might be legal to only make minimal calls, it can result in low time or student pilots stressing about locations of other aircraft. I fly where sometimes gliders will join a left circuit with a right turn onto downwind or thermal just above circuit height with few calls. It's stressful to see a glider head on...more stressful if there are few calls!Anyway, I guess my point is that I can understand why in busy airspace chatter should be minimal, but at quieter strips it just seems helpful to others to at least announce downwind (base is helpful for me too). Plus if people get used to not making calls, that might just become a habit that gets someone hurt. (My 2 cents)

Which airfield do you fly out of? I fly out of YGAW (Gawler in SA), we have lots of glider traffic close to restricted airspace, so very much look and avoid. But we need to maintain appropriate minimal radio calls, to be safe but not to clog our freq.

 

 

[turboplanner]

I think this is about the 8th Radio thread I've seen, and nearly all contain "what I do" posts, and each radio thread has gone off in a different direction.

 

However, there is a standard, which everyone is supposed to be trained to.

 

The standard is based on an improved level of transmissions developed after the lessons of WW2, where it was shown that lives could be saved if the words were made more recognisable under poor radio reception.

 

For example, in the circuit, if a standard phrase is used at a standard point by everyone, then if a radio is not transmitting clearly, everyone can often recognise what was said and where the person is just by the number of syllables.

 

Another example, is that standards phrases and phonetically enhanced words are more easily understood under poor radio conditions and that can save lives.

 

The organisation which look after communications is Airservices Australia.

 

Airservices Australia has around 3,500 employees (compared to CASA, around 1,000)

 

Here's a link to their website: Airservices

 

Radio procedures are contained in the AIP (Aeronautical Information Package), here's the link to this 916 page document:

 

http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/aip/current/aip/complete.pdf

 

Like CASA, Airservices don't seem to be able to make it simple with things like a comprehensive Index, and page numbers.

 

Radiotelephony Procedures are in Section 4 GEN 3.4-11

 

To get there in under 20 minutes, I would suggest you click on CRTL+F and in the search field which pops up, type Radiotelephony Procedures, and you'll go straight there,

 

and be amazed at all the detail on phonetics for alphabet and numbers, standard phrases, and your obligations in communicating with ATC.

 

 

[Yenn]

Turbs. Anyone trained properly to RAAus standards should be fully conversant with what you are saying. there seems to be a group of self proclaimed experts who are always looking for things to nit pick about. I am nit picking about the stupid statements of those self proclaimed experts.

 

 

[OzScot]

Turbs. Anyone trained properly to RAAus standards should be fully conversant with what you are saying. there seems to be a group of self proclaimed experts who are always looking for things to nit pick about. I am nit picking about the stupid statements of those self proclaimed experts.

Sometimes those "nit picking" are low time pilots trying to understand and ask questions to expand their knowledge. The CAR states that radio calls should be made to ensure the safety of those operating in the vicinity of an aerodrome. Why not ask what other people do, to help learn from those with more experience? (I.e., not just what the bare minimum/law is). This is a great forum to learn from those with more experience, and I've always appreciated that.

 

 

[Roundsounds]

Sometimes those "nit picking" are low time pilots trying to understand and ask questions to expand their knowledge. The CAR states that radio calls should be made to ensure the safety of those operating in the vicinity of an aerodrome. Why not ask what other people do, to help learn from those with more experience? (I.e., not just what the bare minimum/law is). This is a great forum to learn from those with more experience, and I've always appreciated that.

The problem with asking, rather than referring to the official documents (CAAP 166 and AIP) being that you'll pick up people's personal preferences and lack of knowledge, resulting in the proliferation of incorrect practices.

 

The latest radio guidance in the RAAus magazine is a classic case, the table of "radio procedures" is not as per CAAP 166 and mentions the "mandatory base call" (no such thing)

 

 

[kaz3g]

Hi Oz

 

If flying an aircraft with radio, then I use it as required by the AIP.

 

I give a 10 NM inbound, joining and final calls PLUS, as needed to ensure my safety and the safety of others, calls on the other legs. If there is following traffic, I advise them of my close and slow base and final, and when clear of runways.

 

I try to keep those calls concise to avoid clogging the air.

 

My home airfield, Shepparton is on 118.8 and the only other "near" us using this CTAF that I can recall is Mildura, so conflicts with other places is minimal.

 

As has happened before, on my recent holiday trip, I heard pilots at small rural airports chatting away to each other on 126.7 which is a tad frustrating when you want to give a mandated call on that frequency yourself.

 

If you want to chat with a friend away from the circuit, use the "Numbers"....123.45

 

Kaz

 

I should have also added taxi and entering calls when departing...k

 

 

[djpacro]

If you want to chat with a friend away from the circuit, use the "Numbers"....123.45 ...k

it is not a chat frequency!See Tutorial: Aircraft station licences or the official source referenced there for:

"Communications between aircraft on 123.45 MHz are restricted to the exchange of information relating to aircraft operations and only the proper call-signs may be used."