Bad Radio Procedures

[derekliston]

Since I started this thread am I to consider that Yenn considers me nit-picking? I simply like to glean the opinions of others on various points. It has been interesting to read all of these responses. So Yenn, it must be nice to be perfect but I assure you that I am not a self-proclaimed expert on anything. I sincerely wish I was!

 

 

[kaz3g]

Apologies..."chat" was a poor choice to describe what should be the exchange of operational information when not in the vicinity of an airfield. Kaz

 

http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/aip/current/aip/general.pdf

 

http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/aip/current/ersa/GUID_ersa-fac-2-12_15-Nov-2012.pdf

 

ERSA NAVIGATION AND COMMUNICATIONS NAV/COMM-1

 

4. AIR-TO-AIR COMMUNICATIONS - CIVIL

 

4.1 Interpilot air-to-air communications in Australian FIRs may be conducted on frequency 123.45MHZ. Communications between aircraft on this frequency are restricted to the exchange of information relating to aircraft operations. Communications are to be established by either a directed call to a specific aircraft or a general call, taking into account conditions pertaining to the use of the particular channel. As target aircraft may be guarding more than one frequency, the initial call should include the distinctive channel identification "INTERPILOT" or identification of the air-to-air frequency.

 

 

[Mewp]

August sport pilot page 53 is a good article on calls and when to make them. it states

 

When departing or arriving at non-controlled aerodromes, pilots have a duty to monitor their radios and clearly broadcast their intentions. and The CAR requires a pilot to make a broadcast whenever it is reasonably necessary to do so to avoid a collision, or the risk of a collision, with another aircraft

 

 

:

 

 

[Roundsounds]

August sport pilot page 53 is a good article on calls and when to make them. it statesWhen departing or arriving at non-controlled aerodromes, pilots have a duty to monitor their radios and clearly broadcast their intentions. and The CAR requires a pilot to make a broadcast whenever it is reasonably necessary to do so to avoid a collision, or the risk of a collision, with another aircraft

 

 

[ATTACH=full]51767[/ATTACH]:

Why add 3 additional calls to those recommended in the CAAP in a publication intended to be educational to RAAus members? The table in the CAAP lists 6 calls, the author lists 8, having added "about to initiate takeoff" and "clear of runways" to the table and "mandatory base call" in the body of the article. Additional broadcasts are only required if there is a potential of conflict, but to routinely make additional calls is poor airmanship. It displays a lack of knowledge and/or disregard for safe practice recommendations.

 

 

[Mewp]

Why add 3 additional calls to those recommended in the CAAP in a publication intended to be educational to RAAus members? The table in the CAAP lists 6 calls, the author lists 8, having added "about to initiate takeoff" and "clear of runways" to the table and "mandatory base call" in the body of the article. Additional broadcasts are only required if there is a potential of conflict, but to routinely make additional calls is poor airmanship. It displays a lack of knowledge and/or disregard for safe practice recommendations.

I agree, it is in the second part of the quote, "risk of collision" That may require the additional calls.

 

 

[nathan_c]

In fact the Regulations say the only required calls are the ones needed for flight safety.

 

The table of calls in the CAAP are in fact only recommended calls that should be used, it does not say shall or must.

 

Would you be smart to at least make a couple of calls? Yes of course, but if there is no one around you could quite legally depart or arrive with zero radio calls whatsoever. Not recommended, but legal.

 

When you fly from busy aerodromes you very quickly become tired of unnecessary and dragged out radio calls because you end up sitting there waiting to try and get a call in, and inevitably get overtransmitted anyway. How is that safer?

 

 

[scre80]

Taking a step back and looking at this, no matter if at the club or in a forum, discussions go the same way!!

 

 

[ben87r]

In fact the Regulations say the only required calls are the ones needed for flight safety.The table of calls in the CAAP are in fact only recommended calls that should be used, it does not say shall or must

I would even go one step further Nathan and say it's a list of the types of broadcasts that COULD be made to aid your obligations to CAR. That's what the CAAP are for, Infomation to aid adherence to the CAR.

 

 

[derekliston]

Love it when we can have these discussions. It is good that no one gets overheated or abusive. I don't claim to be a fount of knowledge so it all helps my learning process.

 

 

[Round Engines]

I was at a country airport not too long ago where an aircraft driver was using his aircraft type as his call sign? I asked him why he was using his aircraft type instead of his rego and he replied that's what we do down here mate.

 

 

[derekliston]

I was at a country airport not too long ago where an aircraft driver was using his aircraft type as his call sign? I asked him why he was using his aircraft type instead of his rego and he replied that's what we do down here mate.

I thought the norm was aircraft type followed by reg? I am never quite sure what to call my CH701 on the radio, I use Zenith but that could be misleading because a Zenith can be doing anything from 60kts up to 100+.

 

 

[REastwood]

After reading all the posts here I noticed that the most important use of the radio has not been mentioned, that is the LISTEN. Everybody goes on about what CALLS to make but what about listening? If you take CAR166 and the CAAP and remember that listening is the most important thing then it makes a lot of sense. So you make a call 10nm inbound (not "inbound" to overfly, you are either inbound or you are going to overfly but thats another topic) people in the vicinity of that aerodrome who are listening will hear the call and should, if there is a risk of collision, make a call, i.e. "Coldstream traffic, Cessna ABC 10 miles to the North, inbound, expect circuit at 05" with a response of "ABC, Tecnam 1234 downwind 34 for circuits". Thus letting the inbound aircraft know that an aircraft is doing circuits and to keep an eye out for them. If the inbound aircraft is coming from the North and you are departing South then there is no risk of collision and no real need to make a call.

 

Joining the circuit. You should call a minute or so before joining the circuit so that those listening will be able to respond if there is a possibility of collision, i.e. inbound aircraft calls joining downwind 34 and you are on crosswind 34 about to turn downwind, NOT if you are taxiing to the runup bay.

 

Taxiing for the runway. You should call that you are taxiing to the runway so that those who are listening will be able to respond if there is a possibility of collision, i.e. if you are on final to runway 34 then you can call to let them know. This is also why you should NEVER make an unsolicited Final call, I have seen it happen too many times where a person makes the taxiing call at the same time a person makes an unsolicited final call (making calls and not listening) so neither are any wiser as to each others location. Then the taxiing aircraft will make a call to enter the runway just as the other aircraft makes an unsolicited call that they are on short final and before you know it you have a collision about to happen. The aircraft in the circuit should be listening and when a person makes a taxiing call THEN you can respond to that call because you were listening and give your position.

 

And so on with the other recommended calls as per the CAAP.

 

If you are doing circuits and really feel the desperate need to say something then the safest call is the Base call with intentions. If you call Downwind you may over transmit another aircraft calling joining downwind, if you call Final you can over transmit someone taxiing for or entering the runway. Remember, the key to safe use of the radio is to make the recommended "trigger" calls and listen! Do not turn the volume down so you can talk to the student or passenger (the number of times I've seen this!), don't just make rote calls, think, transmit then listen.

 

 

[scre80]

I thought the norm was aircraft type followed by reg? I am never quite sure what to call my CH701 on the radio, I use Zenith but that could be misleading because a Zenith can be doing anything from 60kts up to 100+.

I have a zodiac 601, but some also call it a zenith!!! or a zenith zodiac!!! I just settled on Zodiac as that is what all the build paperwork says.

 

 

[ben87r]

I was at a country airport not too long ago where an aircraft driver was using his aircraft type as his call sign? I asked him why he was using his aircraft type instead of his rego and he replied that's what we do down here mate.

Avoiding landing fees usually is the reason.

 

 

[Round Engines]

Avoiding landing fees usually is the reason.

There are no landing fees at this particular airport. Maybe he is so used to trying to avoid landing fees elsewhere that it is just a habit.

 

 

[turboplanner]

The table of calls in the CAAP are in fact only recommended calls that should be used, it does not say shall or must.

This is correct in terms of CASA deciding whether to prosecute you.

 

However, the aircraft you hit or hits you will most likely be the one you don't see.

 

If you haven't followed the CAAP, you are likely to be sued for negligence, given that safety procedures were recommended and you ignored them.

 

If you have been following the CAAP then that is your primary defence against claims for negligence.

 

 

[ben87r]

That's incorrect TP, the CAAP isn't saying that ALL those calls are needed just that they are the standard broadcast.

 

6.3.4 says the following

 

1. Table 2 sets out the recommended broadcasts, but pilots may use discretion in determining the number and type of broadcasts they make. For example, when operating from a private or remote airstrip, a single broadcast declaring an intention to take-off and track in particular direction may be all that is required where there is no response to the initial transmission.
    
    
    
   

 

 

 

 

[SDQDI]

I think if you hit someone or someone hits you the odds of getting satisfaction from being right would be slim.

 

Actually the fact that you collided would prove that you didn't do enough no matter what you did.

 

 

[turboplanner]

I think if you hit someone or someone hits you the odds of getting satisfaction from being right would be slim.Actually the fact that you collided would prove that you didn't do enough no matter what you did.

With dead bodies lying around it's hard to argue that you were not negligent (if you survive), but carrying out recommendations may help your case.

Even if both pilots are killed, there can be a public liability case brought on behalf of the Estate, or claiming from the Estate; if someone believes someone else did something wrong, and they face a life of difficulty, they will usually sue. Plenty of cases of wives suing husbands.

 

 

[jetjr]

Surprised the old AUF crew havent been here arguing they dont need radios at all.....and they are still right I think at many airfields.

 

Was taught to always expect other aircraft without or with faulty radio to be in circuit or maybe on he wrong channel

 

Its never ok to assume because radio is quiet theres no other traffic and this maybe happens a lot to pilots from busier -R airfields

 

 

[Yenn]

Where I fly from I don't use radio unless I suspect there are others flying nearby. See and avoid works, especially when local traffic could be on any one of 3 frequencies.

 

A lot of traffic overflies on area or YGLA frequency and there are still the die hards who insist on 126.7. If I use area, sometimes I can't find a free spot to broadcast in and then I will tend to clog the frequency for the RPT and IFR traffic.

 

 

[jetjr]

If you have one fitted you must use it

 

 

[turboplanner]

Where I fly from I don't use radio unless I suspect there are others flying nearby. See and avoid works, especially when local traffic could be on any one of 3 frequencies.

Where you fly, I can understand that, but the more likely situation is that you have no idea of the times you may have been wiped out.

The truth is you CAN'T see beyond your cockpit periphery, and in some cases you get very little warning.

 

Consider my experience:

 

I was inbound, tracking in the correct position to a CTA inbound reporting point, and not far off making my call.

 

Suddenly I saw a Cessna 210 tailplane flash from left to right in the lower part of vision; he missed me by a matter of metres.

 

His closing speed at cruise would have been around 277 km/hr.

 

He apparently had misjudged the reporting point, realised his mistake and turned 90 degrees to get to the correct entry point.

 

His cruise speed was around 277 km/hr.

 

I had no way of knowing he was there.

 

If he was 10 feet lower, today I would have no idea he had ever been there, unless I'd seen him out to the right.

 

If he was 10 feet higher, I wouldn't be here.

 

I realise that, by a few seconds, neither of us were required to make a reporting call, but he could have made a turning call to alert us to his mistake and both aircraft would have been safe

 

 

[Yenn]

I once called an aircraft up after it had shot across in front of me in a CTAF. He said first off that he had called and then added that he had been on the incorrect frequency. Radio not much good but I had seen him, just in time.

 

 

[Stoney]

Joining the circuit. You should call a minute or so before joining the circuit so that those listening will be able to respond if there is a possibility of collision, i.e. inbound aircraft calls joining downwind 34 and you are on crosswind 34 about to turn downwind, NOT if you are taxiing to the runup bay.

While I generally agree with the rest of your post, my concern with this section is that I don't know where to look for you "a minute or so before joining".

 

I once had an aircraft call "joining mid-field cross wind" while I and another aircraft were doing circuits. I was just airborne, and in my mental map had the calling aircraft directly above me and a little over half a circuit in front. On turning downwind (and calling such, with no reply) I completed some checks and was looking for the traffic to follow on downwind when I suddenly saw an aircraft coming from my left on a direct collision course. The plane was starting to bank left to join mid downwind and the other pilot would not have been able to see me under his upturned wing. I took immediate and abrupt evasive action and the collision was avoided. This was the plane that called "joining" over a minute earlier and was a student pilot with instructor on board.

 

A "joining" call at the time of joining, or a response to my "turning downwind" call or the other pilot looking up the downwind leg could have avoided the near tragedy. I now always visually check to the left when joining downwind, something that was not taught in ab-initio training.