Jabiru Engine Parts support

[Bluboyz]

It seems that Jabiru South Africa, Shadow Lite C.C., is tooling up to to support Jabiru Gen 3 Engine parts ~ Jabiru Engine Parts support - AvCom

 

 

[Oscar]

Surely, this refers to Gen 2 engines, the Gen 3 is the new 'Chinese' engine.

 

 

[jetjr]

Not sure of the Gen numbers, reckon it would be up to 15-20 if all the variations included.

 

Id reckon they are doing parts for pre Gen 4 models, ie hydraulic lifter separate barrel and head models

 

Lots of parts compatible with solid lifter models too

 

It does give hope to those with engine more than a year old. Pricing delivered AU will be interesting

 

Right now there are few parts and no new engines available either

 

 

[tillmanr]

Where is Camit when you need it. Could have survived except for ill feeling from a known person.

 

 

[Camel]

Surely, this refers to Gen 2 engines, the Gen 3 is the new 'Chinese' engine.

Oscar ! Gen 1 is solid lififter Gen 2 is thin Heads hydrauliclic , Gen 3 is roller cam follower with hydraulic , thin Heads and 7/16 through bolts Gen 4 is the latest ! Roller cam followers, cast heads, Nicosil type alloy cylinders, cast heads !

 

I think they have covered some ground and are doing alright but they could do better and they could communicate a little better too ! Not perfect but not that bad either ! I'm a fan of air cooled direct drive and think they are the best choice treated right ! I have a gen 2 and am happy with it..!

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Oscar ! Gen 1 is solid lififter Gen 2 is thin Heads hydrauliclic , Gen 3 is roller cam follower with hydraulic , thin Heads and 7/16 through bolts Gen 4 is the latest ! Roller cam followers, cast heads, Nicosil type alloy cylinders, cast heads !

What are you calling the 1600 then, Gen 0?

 

"Anyway the engine didn't, run found addition issues with 3 of the heads not sealing on the barrels....."

 

?? Same old same old, or am I missing something?

 

 

[Oscar]

Oscar ! Gen 1 is solid lififter Gen 2 is thin Heads hydrauliclic , Gen 3 is roller cam follower with hydraulic , thin Heads and 7/16 through bolts Gen 4 is the latest ! Roller cam followers, cast heads, Nicosil type alloy cylinders, cast heads ! I think they have covered some ground and are doing alright but they could do better and they could communicate a little better too ! Not perfect but not that bad either ! I'm a fan of air cooled direct drive and think they are the best choice treated right ! I have a gen 2 and am happy with it..!

Aha, ok. I'll use that description sequence in future..

 

 

[Yenn]

Has anyone had problems getting spares from Jabiru?

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

As a point of interest I was in Bundy doing a job for my work and then had to get some parts from Bunnings for the farm this weekend here. I dropped into the Jab factory to see if I could get a brochure on the new 6cyc gen4 engine....bargain bonanza I got a private tour with Sue through the factory and the cnc machines and the new parts and 1 piece cast blocks and the machining of such. It was very interesting I will say. They seem to be doing the right things from what I saw also taking a steady steady approach to development. I did like what I saw

 

They also have some ex Camit people there as well.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

1 piece cast blocks

Please explain?

 

They get the crankshafts in how ....

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

like a normal block..I was going to see if I could take some photos but didnt want to push my luck. But it wasnt split in two like the original..same as the 4 cyc is a single cast then machined

 

 

[bexrbetter]

like a normal block..I was going to see if I could take some photos but didnt want to push my luck. But it wasnt split in two like the original..same as the 4 cyc is a single cast then machined

You mean a VW drag racing style block with separate main caps.

 

 

 

Definitely the way to go, although I thought the bottom end was the least of their problems.

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

Yes looks like that. The castings look excellent and the machining looks good as well. I really would have liked to take a pic or two but didnt want to push it. They have 2 machining centres one had a cyl head in it the other is a larger machine and had a 6cyl block in it which they do the 4cyl block in as well. They have also a cnc lathe that is making small parts. Sue showed me a new aircraft with a 6cyl install in it that was about to be delivered and the engine install and airboxes for the heads, it looked quite good with plenty of room under the hood. Not a lot of staff around but then again it was about 2pm on a friday arvo. Sue did say they were taking it slowly to get it all right for production. 6cyl engines in numbers wont be available until late this year or early next year. As I said I was pretty impressed with what I saw there today. I think they have learned a lot of lessons maybe

 

 

[geoffreywh]

Bex wrote "You mean a VW drag racing style block with separate main caps"

 

One can only hope..

 

 

[billwoodmason]

Yes looks like that. The castings look excellent and the machining looks good as well. I really would have liked to take a pic or two but didnt want to push it. They have 2 machining centres one had a cyl head in it the other is a larger machine and had a 6cyl block in it which they do the 4cyl block in as well. They have also a cnc lathe that is making small parts. Sue showed me a new aircraft with a 6cyl install in it that was about to be delivered and the engine install and airboxes for the heads, it looked quite good with plenty of room under the hood. Not a lot of staff around but then again it was about 2pm on a friday arvo. Sue did say they were taking it slowly to get it all right for production. 6cyl engines in numbers wont be available until late this year or early next year. As I said I was pretty impressed with what I saw there today. I think they have learned a lot of lessons maybe

It's called evolution - they have been diligently working on improving their products for twenty years despite the contrary opinions of the Jab haters on here and other forums and the wankers who defected to CASA to push their own careers at Jabirus expense. The long list of mods and improvements is testiment to what I am saying.

 

 

[jetjr]

Im definitely not a Jab hater but they have pushed far too many test engines out the door and improved using customers faith and money.

 

The whole CASA saga has done little but damage old customers.

 

Mid stream parts changes and qa problems have hurt them badly

 

Hopefully they are changing to sell completely developed and worthy engines well supported.

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

I wouldnt say that Bill....I think they were stuck with a sows ear and they were trying to make a silk purse from it. The major issue of all of this is the certification process. In talking with Sue i gathered that the drive behind a lot of this is the certification process and a certified engine being the only real goal.

 

There were original design issues and they have been trying to come up with fixes under the cert process that didnt cost major bucks than it already did so really only small mods.

 

This new engine has given them a fresh start at it and this still means they want it certified as the number one priority so they are taking their time with the process and finer points of the engine mechanics

 

I mentioned to Sue about a aircraft I recently worked on it was Q200 with a dynon radio issue. The owner had a Jab 80hp engine..an older one and I asked him how he felt about it...his answer was great now! It was a hand grenade before but he put one of the SRS fuel injection systems on the engine and now it was sweet as...he has about 50hrs on that system now and absolutely rock solid CHT and EGT as he has mixture control now and the engine never gets hot. This guy has been dealing with small and big engines all his life with machinery and knows his stuff. I have to say when he started it to leave I have never seen a aero engine start any better than this. It sounded beautiful.

 

Anyway when I told Sue about this her eyes lit up and wanted to know who did the system etc..but once she found out it would cost a motza to certify all of it and the added grief of injection systems with a lot of owners who know bugger all it was too much trouble and I can see where she was coming from. I did ask her about what about doing mods or addons that dont take the certified path like injection etc for their engines as there would be far more non certified engines out there than certified ones but she was not interested at all. Certification is what drives them for sure in my opinion.

 

I think they have learned a lot of big lessons in all of this and they do seem to be genuinely trying to make a far better product than what they had before. I hope they do well...I am now seriously looking at having the 6cyl in my list of engines for the Rans but I will have to see a lot more data and real life reports before any cash comes out of my pocket. There are a couple more 120 to 130hp engines I am looking at but most are too heavy so my list is rather short and at 22K for the jab 6cyl and if they get this reliabilty sorted it will be a contender

 

 

[jetjr]

Interesting as Rod has had the same view for years

 

Several efi systems out there, even a nice developed by Jabiru RSA have been ignored

 

Id have thought the need for a certificated engine was pretty small market

 

No 3300 has ever been certified and only a few older 2200

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

I can tell you Sue is most definatly focused on certified engines by our conversations. After speaking to her I am sure the company direction has always been this way. I am sure Rod has driven this focus and this is why they dont seem keen to broaden their horizons. Jabiru could corner the market if they really wanted to especially with this new engine if they keep doing the right things. It is there for the taking but they just dont seem to be interested in making real money.

 

 

[Downunder]

Perhaps they need to be certified for the UAV, military markets? Maybe that's where the real money is.....

 

 

[Oscar]

Guys, there is still confusion about the difference between 'certified' and 'certificated'.

 

'Certificated' means that the engine ( or aircraft) has been issued a Type Certificate by a National Airworthiness Authority to an ICAO standard (i.e. for us, CASA). The Jabiru 2200-C model was Certificated, as was the ST1 (and ST3) model aircraft.

 

'Certified' means that the manufacturer has declared compliance with a standard (for us, the ASTM standard).

 

While in fact the ASTM engine test requirements and the Certification standard applicable are very close, the difference is - and this is a LARGE difference - that the responsibility for the validity of the testing is borne by the NAA in the case of 'Certificated' while it is borne by the manufacturer in the case of Certified. It might seem a fine legal point, but it is why, for airworthiness aspects, GA 'Certificated' aircraft are completely under CASA control, while LSA Certified aircraft are completely under the manufacturers control ( unless the relevant NAA interferes on 'safety' grounds, e.g. CASA for Jabiru engines, the FAA for the Icon weight limit variation).

 

 

[Oscar]

Correction!! It was the 2200J model that was Certificated ( Certificate of Type Approval no. 160-2) I shouldn't type before my second cup of coffee in the mornings..

 

 

[jetjr]

Yes thanks for clarity, i did use terms wrongly

 

Any answer on how 2200J owners are going to get along with parts and major parts no longer supplied from suitable suppliers or not available at all?

 

As far as LSA, the fairly significant steps away from original ASTM certified engines hasnt worried them before, either has sourcing parts from less reputable sources. Maybe the new version is a step too far and they have to test again?

 

 

[Oscar]

I hope I didn't come across as being just a pedant, but it truly is an important distinction.

 

For a Certificated aircraft, or engine, there is a recognised procedure for repairs / modifications - it is called 'Compliance' with the original Type Certificate OR an accepted ( by the NAA, in our case, CASA) issue of a Supplementary Type Certificate. It can be done by (in our local case) a Part 21M engineer (used to be CAR35) and must be approved by the NAA. Once approved, it keeps the aircraft eligible for all original operational limitations.

 

For a Certified aircraft (or engine), it is entirely the manufacturer's responsibility to accept (or reject) the modification / repair scheme.

 

Given that the legal liability for accepting any modification/repair for a Certified aircraft rests with the manufacturer, it is understandable that the manufacturer may not be prepared to take on the liability of a third-party-designed change. Some LSA manufacturers are very helpful in this regard - Tecnam is one - while others are simply 'not interested'...

 

Let's talk actual examples. Modifying a C206 ( I think I have the right aircraft here.. not very conversant with the later Cessna models) for a 'jump door' could be done - since it is a Certificated aircraft - by (in this case) a CAR 35 engineer-designed mod. IF the 206 had been a 'Certified' aircraft, it would have required Cessna to approve the mod.

 

(To lighten up the conversation here, I can recount an example of which I am familiar. A family member had designed a freight container for use by the aircraft that bought King Island cheeses to the mainland; CASA was dragging their feet on approving it. Said family member sent them an email, pointing out that further delays would mean no King Island Double-Brie would be delivered to the mainland if this wasn't approved; cue instant action from CASA. Do you reckon Textron would have given excrement for THAT argument??)

 

In regard to spares for 2200J engines - it's a very vexed issue ( and since I have a 2200J but with many CAMit parts in it, it's of particular interest to me). My engine can only be used in either a VH-Experimental classified aircraft or a 19-reg aircraft, and the level of changes I have made to my own originally VH-reg ( it was ST1-00001, with a 1600 engine!), then changed to 55-reg, will make this an 'interesting' exercise when it's ready to fly (getting there..)

 

CAMit parts would have kept 2200J engines flying; I suspect that now, the only likely source will be Jabiru SA for barrels, heads and crankcases. I don't know what parts from the Jab. Gen 4 engine fit, but - without having ever seen a Gen 4 engine - I cannot envisage that the new barrels and heads will fit on a 2200J crankcase, as the through-bolts cannot - I think - be in the same location as for the 2200 Gen.1-3 engines. Happy to be further advised.

 

 

[jetjr]

What about qualifications etc of the parts manufacturer for certificated parts?

 

I think new Gen 4 heads and bolts will fit hydraulic lifter engines. After all the older cases are all thats available for 3300

 

It would take case mods and a full rebuild i would expect.

 

I did hear rumour with some mods they can be fitted to solid lifter models