The value of Transponders

[bushpilot]

Guys,

 

I'm hoping to benefit from all the experience out there on the question of whether a transponder is worth spending $3,000 on..

 

I'm close to ordering a new 3-axis a/c and the manufacturer quotes a bit over $3,000 to supply and fit one.

 

I know they are compulsory in controlled airspace / airfields, but I'd like to know what the views are on the benefits that a transponder provides in regular flying.

 

Thanks,

 

Chris

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Mate..I wouldn't be without one..If you don't regulaly fly in or around busy areas then mabye its not completly nesc.. But i have been on the area freq a number of times and heard sydney radar point out my position to other aircraft, both in and out of the class C..i feel naked unless the trsansponders on..at least squarking 1200.. And in the very unlieky event of something going wrong, squarking the emergency code would make finding you after you land (crash) a heck of a lot easier.. But if ur just buzzing around in the bush, i don't know...better to have one and not really need it, then need i t and not have it ay?

 

 

[Mick]

When you are head to head with a decent size RPT with a bit of cloud around for you both to hide behind, you will be really glad your transponder has you showing up nice and clear on his TCAS.

 

Personally when you look at the $3,000 as a percentage of the cost of your aircraft, is it really that much?

 

This is one safety device that has no bad effects unless you are doing the wrong thing ( that's when you turn it off ;) ).

 

Both my aircraft have them fitted and they are always on.

 

Cheers

 

Mick

 

 

[Guest browng]

Both my aircraft have them fitted and they are always on.

I agree with what others have already said. My J3 has no electrical system and therefore no ability to power a transponder, a limitation I am continuously aware of. Unless you only ever fly in the middle of nowhere, a transponder is the best safety investment you can make for $3,000, and a used one off eBay will be even cheaper. A big proportion of the US GA fleet is being upgraded to Mode 'S', so there are lots of used Mode 'C' transponders going at very reasonable prices. You can easily get an older NARCO or KING for $500 including tray, harness, and blind encoder.

 

 

[Guest brentc]

A great investment. There are always used units around if you want to save a few dollars and fit it yourself. You could get the manufacturer to cut the hole in your dash perhaps then fit later? Most of the Collins / Bendix and Garmin units are the same size. Microair units fit in a standard mini dash hole.

 

If I had the choice, I wouldn't fly without one on a longer trip. They are very useful and certainly do enhance your safety and visibility to others (through radar controllers).

 

 

[bushpilot]

Thanks... and there's more..

 

All good feedback guys - thank you..

 

I guess if I'm going to have one I'd rather get the factory to supply and fit; it's a new LSA a/c and I dont want to start fiddling with electrics etc on my first day home.. :;)2:

 

They quote $3,300 fitted - and I thought I'd make a decision in principle first before asking them more questions - like type, etc.. In that context, are there any differences in current model transponders? If so, what should I be asking to establish what I'm getting for the money??

 

Cheers,

 

Chris

 

 

[Guest J430]

They should be compulsory!

 

Dont leave the ground without one!

 

J

 

 

[BigPete]

Lets get everyone a radio first!!! and make them use it!!!

 

 

[Ben Longden]

I was chatting with a Bonanza owner who flys in and out of Tyabb and other places in the area, and he fumes at the number of ultralight aircraft who fly without radio.

 

Every airstrip should become a CTAF®, and every bloody pilot should have a radio, switch it on and use it.

 

No radio, no flight.

 

His sentiments, and mine

 

Ben

 

 

[Guest brentc]

Sorry Ben but I think that will just never work!

 

If everyone HAS to have a radio then nobody will be looking out their windows properly!

 

Interesting comment from Tyabb operator. I'm in that area and aside from a rare Aerochute operating out of a paddock I'm yet to come across an aircraft in the last 3 years that doesn't have a radio. Perhaps he's referring to some of the trikes down that way as there are probably 15+ of them.

 

 

[Matt]

If everyone HAS to have a radio then nobody will be looking out their windows properly!

Bit of a stretch to think that's the impact of having and using a radio. As pilots we're trained and expected to multi-task, if you can't press a button, talk/listen on the radio and maintain a lookout I'd question whether you should be in command of an aircraft. We should all be aiming for higher standards of the fundamental skills required to command an aircraft, not less of them at a lower standard.

 

Just my thoughts.

 

Cheers,

 

Matt.

 

 

[Guest pelorus32]

All good feedback guys - thank you..I guess if I'm going to have one I'd rather get the factory to supply and fit; it's a new LSA a/c and I dont want to start fiddling with electrics etc on my first day home.. :;)2:

 

They quote $3,300 fitted - and I thought I'd make a decision in principle first before asking them more questions - like type, etc.. In that context, are there any differences in current model transponders? If so, what should I be asking to establish what I'm getting for the money??

 

Cheers,

 

Chris

Chris,

 

that money will certainly buy you a Garmin GTX320a and probably should buy you a Garmin GTX327 - installed.

 

Others may favour the Australian built xpndrs for mine however the Garmins are the benchmark at the moment. Check out the Garmin website for the details:

 

https://buy.garmin.com/shop/shop.do?cID=198&pID=124

 

And a further two bobs worth: Ask the manufacturer to NOT give you one of those xpndr aerials that are a little silver stick with a little silver ball on top. They seem designed to break every time someone knocks them or washes the a/c. There are a couple of "enclosed" models that look like a BMW mobile phone antenna. They are more robust.

 

What a/c is it?

 

Regards

 

Mike

 

 

[Guest brentc]

Bit of a stretch to think that's the impact of having and using a radio. As pilots we're trained and expected to multi-task, if you can't press a button, talk/listen on the radio and maintain a lookout I'd question whether you should be in command of an aircraft. We should all be aiming for higher standards of the fundamental skills required to command an aircraft, not less of them at a lower standard.

Of course you'd hope that this wasn't the case (not looking outside), but it's bad enough now with people not looking out the windows (refer to Latrobe Valley incident ). If people start to rely on it they will not be expecting the unexpected. (if that's possible)

 

 

[Guest browng]

About this radio thing, I'm in two minds about that. I can see the convenience factor of 'everbody' having a radio, but then I remember that when I first started to fly, a decent percentage of light aircraft were non-radio, and I don't think we banged into each other much more than we do today. I do know that I occasionally whinge about the non-radio Gyros cluttering up the circuit at YBOO, but then occasionally my radio go's on the fritz and have to eat my words. IF we all had to have radios, they would all have to be on, and working well enough, well what is 'well enough' ? I'd say about 50% of radio installations in ultralights and non-electric types like my Cub are problematic at some time or another. Half of me says its a good idea, and half says its just the loss of another freedom...Doh!

 

 

[Guest High Plains Drifter]

There is the added problem of the over-enthusiastic radio user giving a dozen radio calls per circuit, or the 'war and peace' (like the book) style call that takes near half a circuit to get through. Plus, I have seen and heard a few calls say they are in the circuit for a runway, when they are actually circuiting the oposite runway.

 

I would say - look out side and see for yourself, a radio can sometimes cause more problems then it is worth.

 

HPD

 

 

[Matt]

Suggest all of the points you raise HPD are human factors issues i.e. training, currency etc. and could/should be resolved by setting and maintaining high personal standards and high training and instructor standards. Applying any additional technology to the airborne environment will require more of the same...training, currency and testing.

 

Back to the thread though - can't see how a transponder can be a bad thing, not much workload or distraction in it's operation - turn it on before you takeoff, turn it off when you land, change the numbers when a controller tells you to.

 

 

[Guest browng]

can't see how a transponder can be a bad thing, not much workload or distraction in it's operation - turn it on before you takeoff, turn it off when you land, change the numbers when a controller tells you to.

Except that some GAAP's require that transponders be turned off in the circuit.......

 

 

[Guest High Plains Drifter]

Matt, I've got nothing against pilots installing what-ever gadgett they want in an aircraft, as long as it doesnt interfere with the pilot doing the see and aviod thingy.

 

Transponders are required in certain operations - fair enuf. Many RAAus pilots have no need for transponders and the fitting of one can have a major financial impact.

 

It seems to me as though RAAus pilots are being encouraged to fit a device that is to address a deficiancy in GA/RPT where they carnt be bothered looking out the window...getting a fright...then blaming the RAAus pilot for not being visable to them.

 

HPD

 

 

[Guest Flyer40]

It seems to me as though RAAus pilots are being encouraged to fit a device that is to address a deficiancy in GA/RPT where they carnt be bothered looking out the window...getting a fright...then blaming the RAAus pilot for not being visable to them.

HPD

GA and RPT people would be justified in having a problem with comments like that. And there's a few of them on this forum.

 

If the following saves just one life........................

 

Do you know that humans have a blind spot in their central vision? You can be looking directly at another aircraft and be unable to see it. And it gets worse than that.

 

Do you know about the 5 S's and the M? And that it's M that has primacy over the S's in the visual acquisition of other traffic, but paradoxically there is no M when another aircraft is on a collision course?

 

Add airframe blind spots to this deadly cocktail and, well, you get the message.

 

Put them together and it becomes likely that when two aircraft are on an actual collision course they will rarely see each other and will probably collide, even if they do bother to look out.

 

Put another way, and yes I'm generalising, the aircraft you "see" are not the aircraft you need to "avoid" because the ones you see are probably not on a collision course. (By that I'm not referring to managing your separation to a comfortable distance, nor am I referring to avoiding a near miss. I'm referring to avoiding physical contact.)

 

My first instructor taught me to never fly in a straight line in the training area. This sage advice achieved two things, it constantly changed the relative bearing to potential colliders to make them visible to me, and made my gyrating plan form more visible to them.

 

Do what you can to create movement between between other aircraft and the background. It will help to see the ones to be avoided.

 

Back to the transponder question, highly recommended. $3k is good value insurance and confidence.

 

To give an example of their value, I was midway between Lismore and Ballina at 6500 and in radio contact with a Saab and 737 approaching from above and behind on descent. They couldn't see me visually, but they could see me clearly on their TCAS and confidently maintained separation. Despite knowing where it was and looking out for it, we didn't spot the big red 737 until it was turning final miles ahead of us.

 

When the 737 passed us we were looking but not seeing, and they did the avoiding.

 

 

[Guest High Plains Drifter]

Hmmm... I did generalise, didnt I. My apoligies to the RAAus pilots who allso fly fare paying PAX and look out the window for their RAAus brethren. The reality is the majority of pilots, in all aircraft, do look out the window when OCTA and visual. My comments, re not looking out the window,still stand for a very small minority of airtransport aircraft pilots.

 

It appears to me that one of the biggest killers of RAAus pilots is not wearing a helmet. The cost of a good helmet is over $1,500. If my budgett could only afford either a helmet, or a transponder, then I would recomend the helmet. $1,500 will buy a lot of good training as well. (I am NOT recomending mandatory helmets)

 

Flyer40 brings up some good pionts in his post. I will wait a few days to see what others think before I put my veiw.

 

HPD

 

 

[Guest browng]

It appears to me that one of the biggest killers of RAAus pilots is not wearing a helmet.

Although firmly in the 'pro' transponder camp, (but not pro compulsion), I must admit you have a good point there, I personally know of one AUF pilot who according to the coroner, would be alive today if he had been wearing a helmet. I must admit that I don't wear one myself though.

 

 

[facthunter]

RPT and Looking out.

 

RPT aircraft spend most of their time in "controlled" airspace, where, when in radar coverage, they should be confident that they will not conflict with other aircraft. Even a non-transponder equipped aircraft shows up on a radar screen, but it is not giving it's altitude details. This is an important point to note. IF airservices do not maintain their radar installations, and rely on ADSB alone, then anyone who wants to be invisible only has to turn the ADSB OFF, so how confident could you be in that situation?

 

RPT aircraft are invariably PRESSURISED. so the windows are not as big as you might like for structural reasons. I wouldn't like to think that RPT pilots are not looking out, but unless your eyes are fairly close to the window, you don't see a large patch of sky. Experienced and trained people know where to look, and rely on a lot of cues, like your radio calls. If someone calls the wrong runway, that is particularly unhelpfull, because you are not where you said you were, and you have directed people to look in an area where you are not. Nev....

 

 

[Guest J430]

Nev

 

In the major Class C the radar will be maintained, the advantage of ADSB is that you would (assume it goes as was planned) have radar like coverage to a vastly greater area of regional Australia that has no radar now and at lowere levels.

 

ADSB/mode C should be hard wired to the Master.

 

J

 

 

[Guest browng]

ADSB/mode C should be hard wired to the Master.J

But my old girl doesn't have a master, or a generator, or a battery, and as a fully certified type I can't just stick bits on...what about ME?

 

George

 

 

[facthunter]

Hard-wired?

 

With electrical fires, don't talk of hard-wiring anything j430. You have to be able to isolate. Also transponder is turned off at GAAP airports. Nev