The real RA Aus to PPL conversion deal

[rrogerramjet]

Thanks for all the views, I posted this last one to confirm what I had already suspected. I'm being dragged out for whatever hidden agenda the instructor has in their head.

 

So, I'll be seeking a 'fast and forceful' path to completion of my PPL and they will suffer the loss of my intent to train PIFR, which I had hoped to have begun already. If I can't get what I need, I'll cut my losses and go elsewhere.

 

This extension from my initial estimate of 20hrs or so has now cost me about 6K. I'll definitely be doing my PIFR elsewhere.

 

Thanks for some of the views and insights, I'll post back with an update after this weekend, who knows I might finally even get that last 1.25hrs of mandatory IFR done! I wouldn't want to be my instructor tomorrow morning, 'not happy Jan!'

 

Fly safe

 

Ramjet

 

 

[rrogerramjet]

Rogerramjet, I know you are in the ACT, but if you are ever up in QLD, go see Neil Hoffensetz at Ayr Flying Services. He has a good reputation up here with some very highly qualified (atpl types), and there is no pretentions to him, no ********, if you are good to go, you are good to go type of attitude. Doesnt milk you for all you are worth, and actively speaks about not doing so.

Hey 1@Hongie[/uSER] that might actually work, if it doesn't down here, my in laws live in Mackay. After this weekend I will have a much more clarified opinion.

My instructor is fussy, that's okay, but it's really getting ridiculous and he doesn't seem to have a clear curriculum path in mind, which my previous instructor did, and had me to '2 weeks away from test, let's do this thing' attitude.

 

Currently it's a subjective assessment against their own 10000hr? skills which as a low hour pilot I will never meet. Ever.

 

Might see you in Mackay!

 

Fly safe

 

Ramjet

 

 

[giantkingsquid]

Did you find some clarity Ramjet?

 

 

[rrogerramjet]

Did you find some clarity Ramjet?

Hi squid,In a sense. May I quote Marcus Aurelius, "As far as you can, get into the habit of asking yourself in relation to any action taken by another: "What is his point of reference here?" But begin with yourself: examine yourself first."

 

And in that I am conflicted. Some time ago, about 14hrs, an instructor was prepping me tantalisingly close to a test, we almost booked it. With a quick and direct method we addressed curriculum items one by one and bashed at them until they were subdued, conquered and mastered to at least a level of non life threatening skill, certainly enough to squeak over a PPL test mark.

 

Now my current instructor has different standards and expectations, they simply wants to see a perfect demo, with every single flight. No minor circuit errors, no forgetfulness, no navigational errors.

 

I see two very distinct approaches here, I simply much preferred the former. That is also attributed to the consistent time and commitment I put to that regularity of training. Frequency counts for a lot of 'skill' when the drills aren't quite fully embedded as second nature.

 

There are no doubt some poor training skills being demonstrated here, which add to my frustrations, I can't change that. I could bang on about them for ages. I also need to equally reflect on the fact that I almost consistently make some kind of flight error during a session, nothing that will kill us, mind you, just little stuff.

 

My biggest issue is having asked numerous times to be shown the competency marks against each syllabus item so we can concentrate on what I need to learn/relearn and I am now convinced that those markings do not exist. (They will have to be on record prior to a PPL test I am led to believe)

 

Or the fact that my previous instructor made extensive notes (and most probably scored against those syllabus items) but this instructor wasn't aware of those notes existence, hadn't read them prior to re-engaging with me, and hasn't since AFAIK, simply made me 'fly around some more' to see where I was up to (thus the last 10-12 hours...)

 

But their shortcomings, given that I now recognise them clearly, should not be my failure. I must understand and demonstrate what this instructor wants to see. If I was going to let someone loose in the sky with my name signed in their log book, I'd probably feel somewhat the same.

 

I am assured by numerous others that this instructors standards are high and I am 'lucky' to have them training me. Perhaps, when a potentially life threatening situation arises, or I review a gross enroute or planning error and thank them for making me so meticulous, I'll be appreciative.

 

Right now, learning and teaching in a small cockpit together is a symbiotic relationship of sorts and I need to work hard at passing that shared expectation, irrespective of my perception of the paucity in the quality of the 'hard' training skills.

 

I am certainly much more direct in what I want to learn from hereon and to that directness, weather played a favourable part in seeing some final obligatory training put onto the log book last weekend.

 

I am 44hrs in, about 20 more than I expected, so basically double the investment I had anticipated, there's no stopping me now. I was almost ready for a PPL some 14 hrs ago.... we'll simply put that 4K down to 'experience' , in more ways than one.

 

Marcus Aurelius again.."Today I escaped all circumstance, or rather I cast out all circumstance, for it was not outside me, but within my judgements"

 

And that is how I plan to get a PPL....

 

Fly safe

 

Ramjet

 

 

[giantkingsquid]

So you’re persisting then?

 

 

[rrogerramjet]

Do I really have another choice? Jumping schools to have to spend yet another 4-6 hrs demonstrating what I already know.

 

I have already contacted another school, so if it does come to that I know where Im going. I'll most likely go there for my NVFR/PIFR unless a better option comes up...I am also yet to buy an IFR rated plane (or any plane), so no rush on that front.

 

Fly safe

 

Ramjet

 

 

[poteroo]

It occurs to me that the lesson in this tale of unhappy conversion experiences is - think ahead and only do your RAA PC at a school where you can then transition onto RPL and PPL. With this approach, you will be meeting the standard for RPL/PPL right from the start - same instructors, just different syllabus. For a c172 conversion over to RPL, I'd expect that an RPC with 30-35hrs TT - should be able to do it under 10hrs, and that includes the IF. This, particularly if the pilot has been well trained in 'attitude flight' from day 1. GA aircraft are 'tanks' compared to RAAus, and certainly easier to fly. I can't understand why some GA instructors make such a big deal about it.

 

The other point that I'd make about conversions is - temper your enthusiasm and don't aim too high. Do your RPL without traffic pressure somewhere up country, and then look at doing the Class D CTR endo. Look at full PPL later on. You can fly over 98% of Australia with an RPL + D CTA - isn't that enough for starters?

 

As to the box-ticking exercise that flight training has become - it's done to cover bums, nothing more. At my stage of life, I'm going to continue to focus on the basics, and if the student forgets a few small items, or is a little inconsistent - I'm not going to pedantically hold them back. And, I write that into their student records!

 

happy days, and good luck RR.

 

 

[rrogerramjet]

It occurs to me that the lesson in this tale of unhappy conversion experiences is - think ahead and only do your RAA PC at a school where you can then transition onto RPL and PPL. With this approach, you will be meeting the standard for RPL/PPL right from the start - same instructors, just different syllabus. For a c172 conversion over to RPL, I'd expect that an RPC with 30-35hrs TT - should be able to do it under 10hrs, and that includes the IF. This, particularly if the pilot has been well trained in 'attitude flight' from day 1. GA aircraft are 'tanks' compared to RAAus, and certainly easier to fly. I can't understand why some GA instructors make such a big deal about it.The other point that I'd make about conversions is - temper your enthusiasm and don't aim too high. Do your RPL without traffic pressure somewhere up country, and then look at doing the Class D CTR endo. Look at full PPL later on. You can fly over 98% of Australia with an RPL + D CTA - isn't that enough for starters?

As to the box-ticking exercise that flight training has become - it's done to cover bums, nothing more. At my stage of life, I'm going to continue to focus on the basics, and if the student forgets a few small items, or is a little inconsistent - I'm not going to pedantically hold them back. And, I write that into their student records!

 

happy days, and good luck RR.

Should I point out here that this school does RA and after 3hrs conversion in their RA plane I was away doing my own solo navs....(personally I thought the 3hrs was a little extensive and over cautious, but it covered off a BFR too...)But somehow I am unable to pass the subjective, undefined, mystical threshold for my PPL, and as I've related, instructor hasn't articulated any clear path to get there. Other than keep finding some new imperfection with my flying, every single time we fly.

 

Last time it was in the circuit, complaining I went a little long on downwind and then trying to tell me all the extra power I would have to drag in on final because of that, then cautioning me about Vfe, when we were right on the numbers ! (80kts) so I thought, FU theres other ways to do this, left flaps up all the way over the fence and dumped the lot 50ft from the threshold...... maybe a 7/10 landing, I was quite happy with it, not perfect but safe and straight. But now it's 'your circuits aren't good enough, let's practice them again next time' FFS ...really??? I've just come down off 1.5hrs IFR so I'm a little shagged, what do they expect?

 

There are other hidden agendas at play here I'm sure, and the more I think about it, income stream is most likely a prime factor. i. e. Yes Im being milked.

 

I press on, I'm close now...

 

Fly safe

 

Ramjet

 

 

[rrogerramjet]

FYI for anyone following this woeful tale I just checked my logbook and it was 24.3hrs when previous instructor was recommending I book in for flight test.

 

The first 11hrs were with original instructor., doing mostly endless, boring circuits.

 

The next 13 were with the the instructor who left the school just before I could sit test. 3 flights in we were doing 3hr navs and in just on 10hrs had knocked off PFL, PSL, Short field, EFATO, glide approaches, CTA and diversions.

 

In fact my log book shows the last 4hrs was a nav we did way out West pretty much 'just for fun' and demo all the skills. So that last nav was basically my pre test, in just over 20hrs. With only 2hrs IFR as the last manadatory requirement.

 

Now I've just clocked 45, another 21hrs.....back with the first guy. And only just done my IFR.

 

Do I sense a pattern here. ..?

 

Fly safe.

 

Ramjet

 

 

[Hongie]

Come north my friend... PM me if you want a number :) provided you can fly a 172 to standard and speak english, pretty sure you'll walk away with a rpl/ppl

 

 

[rrogerramjet]

Hey fellow aviators,

 

I thought I'd provide an update for those interested. Basically, I feel so soured by my experience that I stopped flying. I simply could not face one more flight with the sneering 'I found some other minor error with your flying and you are never ready for a test' instructor. (See my previous post)

 

It's cost me double what I had anticipated, and since my hiatus I can see even more hours 'wasted' in reinvigorating skill and technique. Who would have thought that an instructor who is recommended as 'good and thorough' would scare someone relatively competent completely off flying altogether.

 

My view is that it has been a lesson in milking, personality conflict, and ultimately an instructor who is a pilot, but not a great teacher, motivator, or mentor. Basically someone who can teach, but with some questionable attributes when it comes to being a quality instructor, sharing knowledge in a way that imparts growth and skills capability on the student, not " that's wrong, that's not how you do it" (see my previous posts again)

 

So to that end, now I have managed to save some more money, (which should have been attributed to aircraft purchase not PPL!) where to get my PPL?

 

I'm in Canberra and have have considered FlyOz in Cowra but they run Piper aircraft. I'd really like to finish off in a C172 CS prop. Any recommendations?

 

Thanks again,

 

Btw I'm going to Cess nock , see you there!

 

Roger

 

 

[Camel]

Dear mr Ramjet, on your avatar it says you sometimes land hard ! I hope this is a joke because bad landings are not acceptable and everyone should strive for perfect landings or go around ! Don't drop it on ! Seriouslely it could be your problem ! Seen people do crap landings and smile saying " how's that " answer is " are you serious ! That was bad "

 

 

[rrogerramjet]

Dear mr Ramjet, on your avatar it says you sometimes land hard ! I hope this is a joke because bad landings are not acceptable and everyone should strive for perfect landings or go around ! Don't drop it on ! Seriouslely it could be your problem ! Seen people do crap landings and smile saying " how's that " answer is " are you serious ! That was bad "

Hi @Camel of course it's a joke. Are all my landings perfect? No. Thanks for the armchair instruction though.

 

Cheers

Ramjet

[pmccarthy]

In the opinion of several friends, the Piper is an easier aircraft to train in. Don’t be put off by it.

 

 

[Camel]

Hi @Camel of course it's a joke. Are all my landings perfect? No. Thanks for the armchair instruction though.

 

Cheers

Ramjet

Consider it free advice as I do get paid for teaching ! As I know there are some ordinary instructors I consider myself to be a very good one ! Your words on avatar show bad landings are ok and they are not,

[djpacro]

In the opinion of several friends, the Piper is an easier aircraft to train in.

It is indeed. If someone comes to me for a tailwheel endorsement and who has only flown a PA-28 I tell them to go away and do some circuits in a Cessna 150/152/172 for a much easier transition to the Super Decathlon.

[facthunter]

They were sold as a ground effect lando-matic in the early 60's. I believe in flying the plane whatever it is, right to touchdown and then fly the nosewheel on. Never try to land by numbers. Every landing is different. Gusts, windshear, slight variation of speed, weight, C of G, different type etc Be ready to go around if it doesn't turn out to your liking. IF you haven't flown for a while apply extra effort to compensate for your lack of recency. Don't expect it to just happen. Nev

 

 

[Dave English]

I did my RPL conversion in PA 28s. The general aviation culture is a bit different. They take things a bit more seriously, and you have to know the VFR much better. It took a few flights for me to be comfortable with the much heavier trim forces in a Piper. I used the time to get my controlled airspace endorsements and you need to do a couple of hours of IFR practice for the cross country endorsement conversion.

 

I would suggest that you find a school that does both RAAus and General Aviation training as they understand the culture of both camps and are more sympathetic.

 

 

[facthunter]

You don't want to be caught in the war between GA and the RAAus.. You are just the customer. Flying schools do have a lot of power over you. It IS their aircraft but another 4 hour X country when you have been flying in and out of "their" aerodrome from the one you have left. It happened to me and I reckon it will keep on happening . When I first became an instructor I swore I would npot be like the worst of the ones who I learned to fly in spite of not because of. They weren't all bad. but some appear to be very sure of their facts and fixed in some ideas and run a few shall we say idiosynchrasies. ( weird habits). The best trainers will find out what you think and determine why you do it that way. Sometimes you are on opposite sides of the same coin , and just coming at it from a different angle If an instructor knows his stuff he shouldn't get too insistent on just his way of doing it, and no other view. Pedantic people are probably insecure..Nev

 

 

[paul_5666]

CASA have updated form 61-1RTX for transfer of RAAus RPC to the CASA RPL. Most significant change is that you don't need instrument time for the navigation endorsement transfer which is in contradiction with CASR 61.500 5c, a bit strange. The list of design feature endorsements has also been shortened, presumably because a few of them didn't exist in the RA world.

 

 

[Jiefuster]

So how many hours from you RAA to RPL (Not PPL)?

 

 

[snarf007]

CASA have updated form 61-1RTX for transfer of RAAus RPC to the CASA RPL. Most significant change is that you don't need instrument time for the navigation endorsement transfer which is in contradiction with CASR 61.500 5c, a bit strange. The list of design feature endorsements has also been shortened, presumably because a few of them didn't exist in the RA world.

Thank you for the info. I am doing my RPC to RPL conversion next month.

 

Have heard of a few people doing conversion over a weekend, but seems to depend heavily on the CFI’s attitude towards RAAus.

 

 

[paul_5666]

I am also trying to do a conversion. Still working on nav endorsement so will transfer that later.

 

Need to organise asic, medical and English assessment.

 

 

[snarf007]

So how many hours from you RAA to RPL (Not PPL)?

I just completed my RPC to RPL conversion yesterday. Took 3 days, 10hrs of ground schools/ briefings and 5 hrs of flying (incl 2 hrs of instrument flying and x-country).

 

Once I receive my RPL, I must still do a flight review and complete my 172 endorcement.

 

My plan is to proceed onward to PPL. The cost has been a real shock to the system and makes me question if it is worth it. My cost for RPC to RPL so far; Medical exam $280, processing fee $75, english exam, ASIC $234, foreign police checks $500, plane rental $756 (thankfully tach time), instructor $2316, still have to add the cost of C172 endorcement, flight review and controlled airspace endorcement...

 

 

[facthunter]

They say sailing is like standing in a freezing shower and tearing up banknotes. There must be some "sensation of flying" equivalent.

 

Consolation...……. Money doesn't buy much of anything these days. Nev