Two stroke engine ban

[Mike Borgelt]

I haven't got many details but apparently our federal Parliament yesterday passed legislation to ban two stroke engines, including lawnmowers, whipper snippers, off road vehicles etc.

 

As ultralights and self launching gliders are "off road vehicles" I can see trouble ahead.

 

Does anyone believe these idiots won't include them in the ban, all in the name of the green delusion.?

 

 

[red750]

The law, based on US and EU laws, will ban production of new two stroke motors, but existing ones are OK while they last. According to a report I read, a two-stroke leaf blower produces the same carbon emissions as 150 cars over the same period.

 

 

[old man emu]

[Mike Borgelt]

Fortunately R/C models are largely moving to electric power.

 

So what about the amount of emissions per hour? How much use does a weed blower get per year compared to a car. Or an auxiliary two stroke on a sailboat? Or a two stroke on a self launching glider?

 

 

[facthunter]

Red, I doubt the accuracy of that. Carbon emissions are a result of burning a set amount of hydrocarbon fuel and it wouldn't matter how you did it . it's a simple chemical process based on atomic weights to get actual figures. DECAY of organic materials is the same outcome as burning for the end result, but takes longer. Nev

 

 

[Jim McDowall]

I haven't got many details but apparently our federal Parliament yesterday passed legislation to ban two stroke engines, including lawnmowers, whipper snippers, off road vehicles etc.As ultralights and self launching gliders are "off road vehicles" I can see trouble ahead.

Does anyone believe these idiots won't include them in the ban, all in the name of the green delusion.?

Existing two stroke engines are probably OK see:

http://www.environment.gov.au/system/files/resources/bb0da7a5-6404-4890-b096-bf588fedae35/files/factsheet-non-road-spark-ignition-engines-emission-standards.pdf

 

So where do jets fit?

 

 

[aro]

Red, I doubt the accuracy of that. Carbon emissions are a result of burning a set amount of hydrocarbon fuel and it wouldn't matter how you did it . it's a simple chemical process based on atomic weights to get actual figures.

Yes, I suspect that is supposed to be hydrocarbon emissions i.e. partially burnt fuel and oil.

 

 

[turboplanner]

A two stroke ban on boat motors has been flagged for about a decade, so I had a quick look on the Boat Sales site.

 

Interestingly they didn't mention a ban on two strokes, but New Emission standards for all non-road spark ignition engines.

 

The new emission levels are to start by July 2018 and be implemented at the full level by July 2019

 

I went on the DIRD site but couldn't find anything there yet.

 

It may well be that the new emission level may wipe out two strokes, just as emission levels wiped out two stroke diesel truck engines a couple of decades ago, taking out one of the all time best performing engines for road and marine, the Detroit Diesel.

 

However, this legislation may also apply to spark ignition aircraft engines, which would seriously affect not only the two strokes, but four strokes as well, because the development costs to achieve these standards can run into millions, if not billions of dollars, and historically there have been no emotional reprieves; for example Caterpillar simply had to shut down truck engine production because it couldn't economically meet the ever tightening standards. (from 1992 to the present, particulate emissions have been reduced by 97%).

 

This would not only directly affect recreational and general aviation, but agribusiness and construction equipment too.

 

Hopefully the legislation will be up on the DIRD site soon, and we can see the exact wording.

 

 

[red750]

Red, I doubt the accuracy of that.

Nev, I was quoting from this government report: Department of the Environment and Energy

 

Not quite so alarmist perhaps, but this from a Herald Sun report on the end of production of Victa two stroke mowers:

 

"Blue Sky Alliance chair Gary Fooks, who represents the industry, said most manufacturers welcome the proposed new rules, which will bring emissions controls for non-road petrol engines in line with those in cars.

 

 

 

“At the moment, a two-stroke lawnmower puts out 40 times the emissions of a car, and this is pollution around people’s homes,” he said."

 

 

[Jim McDowall]

Yes, I suspect that is supposed to be hydrocarbon emissions i.e. partially burnt fuel and oil.

Not just emissions from exhaust but fuel tanks vapours via vents as well.

 

 

[red750]

Yes, I suspect that is supposed to be hydrocarbon emissions i.e. partially burnt fuel and oil.

My bad, it was hydrocarbons.

 

 

[Mike Borgelt]

The partially burned stuff is only a problem in large concentrations in cities. No problem in other areas. It all ends up as CO2 and water. I suspect the "problem" is people who cannot do mathematics to properly ascertain the scale of a problem.

 

Don't get me started on the CO2 non problem.

 

 

[Mike Borgelt]

And of course in Australia we have heaps of VOCs (volatile organic compounds) from napalm, er gum trees. They ain't called the Blue Mountains for nothing. I suspect a few two strokes are negligible. We are governed by idiots as will become obvious when the lights go out.

 

 

[facthunter]

Unfortunately it's bull$#!t. It's burnt or it isn't, and it's the AMOUN.,Whatever it's in. My dam no doubt puts out large amounts of methane, which could probably power my house, in an ideal world. Nev

 

 

[kasper]

Two things

 

1. From the linked doc above - Only applies to watercraft engines of any size or other nonroad engineszw 25p or less. Two stroke ultralight engines are not within that group of engines therefore not applicable

 

2. Jets are not spark ignition engines so also not applicable.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Its difficult for manufacturers of garden equipment to sell small 4 stroke engines when you have 2 strokes undercutting you buy $1-300

 

 

[OZJohn]

A two stroke ban on boat motors has been flagged for about a decade, so I had a quick look on the Boat Sales site.Interestingly they didn't mention a ban on two strokes, but New Emission standards for all non-road spark ignition engines.

The new emission levels are to start by July 2018 and be implemented at the full level by July 2019

 

I went on the DIRD site but couldn't find anything there yet.

 

It may well be that the new emission level may wipe out two strokes, just as emission levels wiped out two stroke diesel truck engines a couple of decades ago, taking out one of the all time best performing engines for road and marine, the Detroit Diesel.

 

However, this legislation may also apply to spark ignition aircraft engines, which would seriously affect not only the two strokes, but four strokes as well, because the development costs to achieve these standards can run into millions, if not billions of dollars, and historically there have been no emotional reprieves; for example Caterpillar simply had to shut down truck engine production because it couldn't economically meet the ever tightening standards. (from 1992 to the present, particulate emissions have been reduced by 97%).

 

This would not only directly affect recreational and general aviation, but agribusiness and construction equipment too.

 

Hopefully the legislation will be up on the DIRD site soon, and we can see the exact wording.

Caterpillar has not shut down truck engine production and are in full production.

 

In some polluted environments they claim to be putting out cleaner air than what they are taking in.

 

 

[Mike Borgelt]

Unfortunately it's bull$#!t. It's burnt or it isn't, and it's the AMOUN.,Whatever it's in. My dam no doubt puts out large amounts of methane, which could probably power my house, in an ideal world. Nev

Yes and the methane turns to CO2 and H2O in the atmosphere without you burning it.

 

 

[onetrack]

Not just emissions from exhaust but fuel tanks vapours via vents as well.

Petroleum Vapour emissions from vents and tanks have been controlled in a very substantial manner since the mid-1970's.

If you take a look under the bonnet or body of your car, you'll find a thing called a charcoal canister in the fuel lines.

 

The charcoal canister was one of the earlier emission control devices, and the fuel tank is permanently vented through it, thus stopping petrol vapour from escaping to the atmosphere.

 

Similarly, all petroleum-dispensing and handling equipment is built with vapour-control or capture devices, thus reducing vapour losses to negligible levels.

 

Non of this stop individuals from leaving open containers or open drums of petrol lying around, of course.

 

But when they realise they've just lost a serious amount of petrol to evaporation, they soon learn not to do it!

 

 

[Yenn]

Some of the big ships use massive 2 stroke engines. I remember seeing a spare piston and rod on the Tolga. It must have been about 6' bore.

 

Will they be affected?

 

 

[onetrack]

Caterpillar has not shut down truck engine production and are in full production.

TP is correct, but only partly correct. Caterpillar did temporarily shut down the production of their On-Highway diesel engines in 2009, because they were unable to meet the new, 2010, On-Highway emission regulations.

Caterpillar stated it was unwilling to spend the large sums of money required on their On-Highway engines, to meet the new, 2010 On-Highway engine emissions laws, because Cat On-Highway engine sales were not sufficiently large enough to justify the expenditure on re-designing their engines to meet the new, 2010, substantially-tighter, On-Highway engine emissions levels.

 

Cat's engine useage and sales is primarily off-road, construction equipment, and industrial use. In Off-Highway use, the engine emissions laws are not so strict.

 

Cat then went into Joint Venture with Navistar in 2008 to produce "vocational" On-Highway trucks.

 

The Cat/Navistar JV spent some serious money redesigning the Cat On-Highway engines to meet the On-Highway 2010 engine emissions regulations.

 

Interestingly enough, the Cat/Navistar JV utilised Cummins Diesel emission-control components and technology, to meet the new 2010 emissions levels regulations.

 

The Cat/Navistar JV produced its first Cat On-Highway truck production in 2011, from the Navistar factory in Mexico.

 

Caterpillar withdrew from the Navistar JV in 2016, but not for any emissions legislation reason - the reason for ending the Cat/Navistar JV, was purely economics.

 

Cat are now manufacturing their Cat On-Highway trucks at their factory in Victoria, TX. I understand they are still utilising Navistar cabins in their On-Highway Cat trucks.

 

Cummins are the poster boy of viable diesel emission controls. Whereas General Motors chose to do virtually nothing about 2-stroke Detroit Diesel emissions - and other diesel engine manufacturers had to be dragged kicking and screaming to meet emission targets, Cummins sought to work pro-actively with regulators to meet diesel engine emissions targets.

 

Cummins also took regulators through their manufacturing and engineering depts to show them what they were doing, and to show what was possible, and what was impossible, in their efforts to meet engine emissions laws.

 

Cummins increased R&D by 60% to improve engine design technologies to meet emission targets, and have become leaders in the On-Highway diesel engine field, accordingly.

 

Cummins: An engine maker bets on clean air — and wins.

 

Personally, I wouldn't be in the least upset, if every smoky, noisy, annoying, 2-stroke engine disappeared from the planet. It is early 20th century technology that needs to be abandoned.

 

We are on the cusp of the quiet, clean, electric revolution, and we need to embrace it, not reject it, by promoting a Luddite attitude.

 

But of course, we still have Luddites, and they actually have their own website! - using that new-fangled electric and electronic, industrially-advanced technology!

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Get a grip guys.

 

Various 2 strokes are now some of the cleanest engines out there, Evinrudes outboard engines* are number 2 I believe for lowest emissions of all outboards in California, the tightest rules in the World. They also burn less oil than many 4 strokes. That's courtesy of Australian Orbital Engine company tech by the way.

 

* You will not find Evinrude mentioning the words "2 stroke" at their websites such is the bad name they have.

 

Stihl has a recent and very clever innovation that has their whip snip and chainsaws engines also passing. It offers a wall of air in between the outgoing exhaust and incoming charge so no fuel gets up the exhaust.

 

BRP direct injection 2 strokes in snowmobiles and jetskis are clean too.

 

Sadly 2 strokes have a 60 year old reputation that can not be shaken.

 

Personally, I wouldn't be in the least upset, if every smoky, noisy, annoying, 2-stroke engine disappeared from the planet. It is early 20th century technology that needs to be abandoned.

As I said, this is the attitude and held beliefs of many, yet is far from the truth today.

 

I would build a stepped piston 2 stroke in a heartbeat, lighter, simpler, reliable, more powerful than any 4 stroke if not for the prevailing attitudes.

 

 

[turboplanner]

2 strokes will not be an issue if they meet the new regulations, but we need to see the gazetted legislation before we know what the exact wording is.

 

 

[onetrack]

Bex, it's not the current, hi-tech 2 stroke that is the problem. It's the 500 billion, polluting 2-strokes of every form, already in use; plus the companies that are still building old-style 2 strokes, that are the problem.

 

In my lowly opinion, anyone pouring money into designing a better IC engine is flogging a dead horse, considering that electric technology is gaining on IC engines rapidly, and emission regulations are gradually strangling IC engines.

 

Even the Saudis have admitted they no longer have a golden goose laying the golden eggs of oil production, and they are rapidly turning their sovereign wealth fund investments into other technologies besides oil-based ones.

 

In 2000,Sheikh Yamani uttered the following far-sighted, and prophetic statement;

 

“Thirty years from now there will be a huge amount of oil, and no buyers. Oil will be left in the ground.

 

The Stone Age came to an end, not because we had a lack of stones - and the oil age will come to an end, not because we have a lack of oil.”

 

 

[frank marriott]

OR

 

Put the greenies back in their box, but in reality that is not likely to happen - certainly in our lifetime (or at least for most of us anyway)