Two stroke engine ban

[Marty_d]

I can't seem to take the argument sensibly, where the Govt want you to believe that by not burning coal, you somehow are going to save the planet, yet at the same time, the same Govt are exporting the stuff at record levels for other countries (On the same planet) to burn.

What, you'e never before seen hypocrisy from government??

 

 

[SDQDI]

The title is factually incorrect, and should have been changed long ago; it just fuelled a whole lot of nonsense.

I am no expert but I think us blaming the title for the nonsense in this thread is a bit rich.

 

 

[turboplanner]

I am no expert but I think us blaming the title for the nonsense in this thread is a bit rich.

Bex was referring to the victimisation of two strokes, which have not been banned at all. Like diesel manufacturers, rotary manufacturers, four stroke manufacturers, you can design and use a two stroke, provided it meets the emission standard of the day, and several two stroke varieties, without any modification required will meet current standards.

 

I posted the regulation key points in #80 - no ban on two stokes.

 

Yet the vitriol continues on even though its totally irrelevant.

 

For example, the emission of Nox and particulates causes cancer in Cities and towns. Remote power stations, coal burning or otherwise don't.

 

 

[Jonny_J]

For example, the emission of Nox and particulates causes cancer in Cities and towns. Remote power stations, coal burning or otherwise don't.

If anything it's a good thing that they keep updating the emissions rules isn't it? I mean clearly it's not a set and forget kind of thing, look at diesel cars. It used to be a much more fringe thing to own a diesel; basically if your use of a car made sense to own a diesel engine. But then heavy handed (and short sighted) 'green' legislation and advisories came in that only focused on certain types of emissions that favoured diesel engines and now we have to put up with disgusting clouds of regeneration exhaust all the time because motorists were being told that diesels were cheaper and greener to run. Now I see the UK has banned the sale of diesel cars in the future and lots of friends I have there are feeling confused because they'd actually been lead to believe they were doing their bit for the environment.

 

Of course it'd be nice if for once legislation wasn't reactionary and short sighted, but wherever you are in the world, we're still talking about governments lol.

 

Personally I'd be very happy with an electric plane when the technology is available.. and tested... very much tested (I don't want to be the person who finds out how many hours until failure anything has). So far all the electric fixed wings I've seen are tiny little things with a very small range, although an electric trike could be nice...

 

 

[turboplanner]

then heavy handed (and short sighted) 'green' legislation and advisories came in that only focused on certain types of emissions that favoured diesel engines and now we have to put up with disgusting clouds of regeneration exhaust all the time.

The exhaust clouds are particulates - particles of smoke.

Particulates have been reduced in Motor vehicles by 97% since 1992, and prior to that were being visually reduced by means of on-road compliance and enforcement using the Ringelmann visual scale.

 

I think recirculation is the term you want, and what happens there is the particulates about to flow down the exhaust and out into the streets are recirculated back through the high temp exhaust area to be burnt, leading to a substantial reduction of particulate emission. An alternative is to inject a small amount of urea into the exhaust (AdBlue) which destructs the particulates.

 

The Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) reduces power and burns more fuel, whereas the Urea Injection is downstream from the engine, and is so good that older and dirtier design engines pumping out more power and burning less fuel can be used for the same result. The downside to Urea injection (SCR) is that, like a two stroke, you have to buy it, and you have to remember to fill the tank.

 

In both cases, what comes out the exhaust is invisible, so the story about disgusting clouds, which appears to have come from an amateur Melbourne discussion earlier this year is bullsh!t.

 

now I see the UK has banned the sale of diesel cars in the future.......lots of friends I have there are feeling confused because they'd actually been lead to believe they were doing their bit for the environment.

There goes that "banned" word again, not used so far by any emission authority anywhere in the world.

Europe actually has the toughest emission controls apart from California, and, for example in Italy, when a Police Officer pulls you over he'll attach and instrument to a plug on the outside of your car and get a reading of it's recent history, including its emission levels.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

I am no expert

I think honest self appraisal is to be commended, well done you brave guy you!

 

blaming the title for the nonsense in this thread is a bit rich.

My post? Nothing to do with the content, just people seeing the title instills the myths and lore surrounding 2 strokes.

 

Personally I'd be very happy with an electric plane when the technology is available.. and tested... very much tested

There is nothing new or unique about the systems that have been around longer than IC engines and 'tested' in magnitudes over IC engines daily.

 

 

[spacesailor]

Funny isn't it?

 

Long ago steam car's had & still have zero NOX emissions.

 

"For example, the emission of Nox and particulates causes cancer in Cities and towns".

 

Not even a chimney for the missing smoke of a railway train.

 

spacesailor

 

 

[coljones]

Hate to put a damper on the pumped hydro supporters but the reality has to be faced after listening to the spin.Tumut 3 Power Station has a total of 6 turbines, 4 of which have pumps.

 

Water coming off the top of Talbingo Dam falls 115m down each pipe at a rate of 189m/s into the turbine that has an internal area

 

of 1,132 m3 then the water discharges into Jounama Pondage

 

115m head gives it a pressure of 1,128 kph so when it comes time to pump uphill, it has to overcome a pressure of 1,128 kph before anything starts to move uphill.

 

The internal cubic capacity of each pump is 99.1 m3 or roughly 10% of the turbine size, and at full speed it pushes the water up the pipe at just on 90m/s

 

So for every hour of operation producing power, it will take 2 - 2 1/2 hours of pumping to shift the same amount of water, and it will use 30% more power than it produced to do it.

 

If it runs for only 4 hours a day, then that will require 8 - 9 hours of pumping to move the used water back up the hill, and there's the clanger, there is only about 6 hours of off peak time available after the power stations handle the peak and then top up everyone's off peak hot water.

 

Fact or Fiction ? Look at the current lake levels on Snowy Hydro. Lake Eucembene (The top Dam is only at 37%) capacity but the lowest dam at Blowering is over 80%

 

because they haven't been able to move the water back up into Talbingo Dam to re use because the power has not been in the grid.

 

They have to release what they cannot pump up from Jounama Pondage into Blowering, and then take it from Eucembene to top up Talbingo to feed Tumut 3 for the next day.

 

Snowy Hydro feed the grid at many times the price for their power compared to a coal fired power station, then buy back the power at off peak rates making it commercially viable .

 

So if it Snowy Hydro 2 goes ahead, then the first thing to go will be Off Peak Rates as all available power will be soaked up pumping water from Jounama up into

 

Talbingo, then the new proposed Power Station moving the water From Talbingo up into Eucembene. (And the head pressure for that is over 600m or over 5888 kph making it a mega power sucker upper) So the only way to feed that monster will be from coal.

You can always feed it from wind or solar or even another hydro system at peak water capacity. You could even use Liddell power while ever it is between breakdowns. Obviously AGL, a power provider and the owner of Liddell, is of the opinion that Liddell is a basket case and that they, AGL, can't make cheap electricity or a profit for its shareholders ,who include anyone with superannuation, by following the coal route or the entreaties, and sometimes outright lies, of the miners council, the coal companies and the idiots sitting on the extreme right of the Liberal and Country Parties.

 

 

[jetjr]

Id suggest they dont want to invest in a 50 year project with public and political pressure against them including billions in subsidies to help your competitors.

 

No matter how much sense it makes or helps manifacturing businesses.

 

 

[DenisPC9]

Farmers hail 'off the grid' trial a success

Umm, isn't that what Farms had prior to the Grid reaching them?

 

I remember when I was in my early years of high school in the Hunter Valley in the early 1960s, some of my classmates lived on farms quite a distance from towns, they were all on generators because there were no external power sources. Even after Liddell was commissioned it still took several years until the poles and wires reached them.

 

 

[spacesailor]

And now the city dweller's are going to lose their wires, (old copper phone).

 

UK seems to have lost "free to air" tv, as no antenna's on the roofs, & most get tv from Internets underground cable.

 

spacesailor

 

 

[Yenn]

I can remember rolling stoppages in NSW in the mid sixties. That was when we were madly building power statioms. Vales Point, Munmorah and several others.

 

 

[Methusala]

Pumped hydro (Snowy Mk.2) will never become a reality. As mentioned before, the head at 750+m is not within the working range of hydro generation. Then there is the problem of managing a column of water 15m dia x 55 km in length. The civil cost of construction would be horrendous. Pumped storage is also in use at Waste Pt where water is pumped from Jindabyne (Snowy R) to Island Bend and hence to Murray or Tumut sides of the scheme. There is also a question in my mind as to whether Jounama Pondage could cope with the output of the theoretical Tantangara-Talbingo scheme.

 

Pumped hydro could work well in many smaller sized systems which are not located in a semi-wilderness. PV installations are becoming very cheap to install and could be dedicated to pumped storage.

 

 

[Pominaus]

UK seems to have lost "free to air" tv, as no antenna's on the roofs, & most get tv from Internets underground cable.

spacesailor

Not to derail, but I think the UK still has freeview - their free to air digital TV system that's built into most all TV's there. I think the reason few have roof antenna is because when they launched freeview they made a big deal that they had enough masts up that you only needed a small "digital-ready" antenna in your living room. Though outside of cities you do still need a roof antenna most of the time. The cable TV isn't replacing it, it's just that most of the UK had a US-style cable TV network installed in the 90's by a private company (basically whther you were a customer or not, your street got cable) and that changed hands a few times before ending up with Virgin. Now they offer internet, TV and phone through the cable, so it's a thing you can choose to pay for. It's sort of like choosing to have foxtel here; free to air still exists, It's just that in the age of basically having to have an internet connection, and most people still want a home phone, the package to have foxtel/cable at home as well starts to look more attractive. About half of the people I know in the UK have paid TV (either cable or satelite) as far as I'm aware. Then again, lots of young people I know have basically switched to netflix & co lol, and when you look at things like the cost of paid TV you can see why!

 

Then again they never abolished their TV tax, so I guess, yeah no such thing as free TV in the UK lol!

 

 

[Ron5335]

PV installations are becoming very cheap to install and could be dedicated to pumped storage.

Australia's largest PV installation is at Royalla, just outside Canberra. It's 83,000 panels provides 20Mwh of power.

 

1 Turbine at Tumut 3 requires 177Mwh to operate when pumping, so we need another 8 Royalla's to feed it.

 

or if the 4 turbines at Tumut 3 need to operate, we need 36 more Royalla's

 

The one thing that seems to be missing from all the records is, How much each Royalla costs?

 

But we know the ACT Govt is buying the power from Royalla at $AU186.00Mwh

 

So at those figures, 177Mwh @ $186 per Mwh = $32,922 per hour to run one Turbine/Pump from Solar

 

'Australia's largest' solar farm opens south of Canberra

 

 

[Methusala]

Thermal generators are quickly reaching the end of their life and so some capital investment is required to replace it. Being no expert in the economics of energy I have to believe the commonly quoted statement that renewables are less costly than replacement by new coal. There is a lot that can be done through demand management so pumped hydro becomes a moderating factor in supply. The T3 equipment is probably already committed but smaller units can be built in optimum locations.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

[No message]

[Ron5335]

I have to believe the commonly quoted statement that renewables are less costly than replacement by new coal.

Yes, I may have to agree with you there, however everything needs to be put into perspective

 

Here is a link that takes you to the AEMO and it's a live feed of the Nations power consumption.

 

Data dashboard – Australian Energy Market Operator

 

Last night it shows, that in the early hours of the morning, the power demand for NSW was at it's least, but it was still was

 

requiring 6,000Mwh to keep things running.

 

So a new 20Mw renewable source installed here and there to replace an 1800Mwh coal fired closure is not going to keep a supply/demand system balanced.

 

 

[kasper]

Well this thread as galloped not drifted - and I recognise I'm part of that. Me bad.

 

BUT...

 

Consider

 

You need as much electric during darkness as daylight and you think of pumped hydro as a battery to cover darkness

 

To go 100% solar generation you'd need about as much pumped water by solar as you have direct usage solar.

 

So with around a guesstimated 65% combined efficiency of pump then hydro you'd need around 2.5kwh in panels to provide a constant 1kwh across a day.

 

And if nsw needs 6000kwh to keep running you need 15,000kwh of solar panels and about 5 Tumut 3 pumped hydro systems.

 

That is big. But not as big as you might think

 

6000kw of solar panels is around 3,600 hectares of panels. But to put that into perspective that's a roadside set of panels running between Cowra and Canowindra in the central west powering the entire state ...

 

Or a couple of hill sides in the snowy mountains near the water pumped system.

 

Yes I know scale has to be bigger than this for lower generation from clouds etc but the physical size of the states entire needs is pretty small.

 

 

[Methusala]

ConsiderYou need as much electric during darkness as dayligh

This is not true with peak demand for energy falling around 6pm. Solar pv is a definite daylight hours source but SA is committed to solar thermal in a small way. Wind is more comprehensive in its hours of supply. Modern computer driven demand management is a great tool not yet entered into the mix. Batteries and pumped hydro are expensive but essential in moderating demand fluctuations. The largest solar array is the recently opened Nyngan plant (102m/W).

 

 

[kasper]

This is not true with peak demand for energy falling around 6pm. Solar pv is a definite daylight hours source but SA is committed to solar thermal in a small way. Wind is more comprehensive in its hours of supply. Modern computer driven demand management is a great tool not yet entered into the mix. Batteries and pumped hydro are expensive but essential in moderating demand fluctuations. The largest solar array is the recently opened Nyngan plant (102m/W).

It was a simplification- there are less productive solar hours in a day than half the day - the short hand of equal specify takes into account the lower demand in those non-solar generative hours.

But that's detail. I was looking at a big picture of actually how small a footprint a massive solar system is ... and with distributed generation on house roofing the actual size of centralised generation and storage is actually less. But as you note - its load sharing and capacity management that's the area that needs more attention

 

 

[kasper]

Oh and site maintenance and remediation on retirement of a solar farm is likely to be a very small cost compared to the combined power station and mine that's running he lights today.

 

Whole of life costs on a like for like basis I'm unable square between solar/wind and coal/nuclear.

 

 

[Ron5335]

Or a couple of hill sides in the snowy mountains near the water pumped system.

Kasper,

 

Are you suggesting that we strip away the forested hills of the Snowy Mountains to cover them with Solar Panels ?

 

The Greenies will be burning you on the stake

 

We will have to go past Canowindra with your run of panels, because the 6,000 Kwh is the States Minimum usage.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Have any rag and tubers worked out whether there will be a compliant engine to continue their sport?

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Kasper,Are you suggesting that we strip away the forested hills of the Snowy Mountains to cover them with Solar Panels ?

 

The Greenies will be burning you on the stake

 

We will have to go past Canowindra with your run of panels, because the 6,000 Kwh is the States Minimum usage.

Why be hung up about the area required for PVs? Cover every roof with them and our towns and cities would produce an excess of power.