Failed avmed

[stevron]

Can you believe it , I worry about my weight to height ratio , my previous medical impos, my eye sight, my hearing , my sugar ,my blood, how many beers in drink of a night , just to be told all that's ok , but my neck is too large and so it should be , as it has to carry my fat head.

 

It appears that CASA has decreed that if your a male and have a neck size in excess 42 or a woman greater 38 your not going to receive a class 2 medical without doing an expensive sleep over and report .

 

Out of the many places I could be on a lazy evening ,hospital is not one that jumps out at me.

 

So be for -warned and prepare your self for the additional expense of a sleep apnea test .

 

Happy snoring

 

 

[SSCBD]

Was that measured and is 42 neck size actually 15inches by tape?

 

 

[stevron]

Half a brick and a hammer handle on my shoulders will surfice as long as it measures less than 42

 

 

[SSCBD]

Half a brick and a hammer handle on my shoulders will surfice as long as it measures less than 42

Sorry stevron - have no idea what that means.

 

 

[djpacro]

Obesity | Civil Aviation Safety Authority

[onetrack]

This has to be utter BS. So many blokes have thick necks, it's part of their build. How can CASA intransigently pick a neck size, without relating it to body size and build?

 

Probably a full 90% of people of stocky German or Anglo-Saxon descent wouldn't make the grade for neck size - particularly if they were over 50.

 

Stepdaughters boyfriend has just gone through the same BS - as a train controller. Got picked out for a sleep apnea test with the same type of intransigent BS rules - but those sleep apnea rules were not related to neck size.

 

Part of his problem is crap work rosters that don't give him adequate time to recover from constant changes between night and day shifts - and they're long shifts, at that.

 

The whole sleep apnea process was "iffy" from go to whoa, with no national standards for the conditions required for a sleep apnea check. The test was about $900 - out of his own pocket - and he failed it.

 

Now, the testers claimed he failed, because of his excessive movements during the sleep test, indicating he was suffering from disturbed sleep, as a result of snoring.

 

As he pointed out, you have this huge, clumsy mask and straps interfering with your sleeping comfort - so of course, you're not going to sleep well!

 

Then the SD - who just happens to be a senior OH&S manager with a major oil and gas company, accompanied him to the testers office.

 

The tester woman had no idea what she was looking at, with regard to the test results on the screen - couldn't interpret them properly when the SD started asking some pertinent questions - and couldn't provide any reference to any national sleep apnea guidelines or standards, that she was reputedly following. They use American standards and research, which may, or may not, translate to Australian subjects.

 

The whole deal with SD's boyfriend isn't finished yet, and it's obvious the entire arrangement is set up by some backroom manager to ensure failure of sleep apnea test candidates - because they make it up, as they go along.

 

I'm just waiting for someone with some money and clout to commence a lawsuit against these authorities intransigent, "on-the-fly" rules, and the general lack of national, verifiable standards, lack of proper peer-reviewed Australian sleep research, and their unreliable sleep tests, that even their testers can't interpret with any degree of accuracy or repeatability.

 

 

[stevron]

Thanks DJ , I have read this with the dame , but as I said , all my other tests I past except the 42 neck.

 

But thanks for pointing out the BMI but I and most 60 plus year olds ex rugby players would find it hard to fit in to the 18 to 24 bmi

 

 

[bexrbetter]

This has to be utter BS. .

Public Servants and Health and Safety Officiers needing to invent stuff to make themselves look like they are doing something. Last few times in Australia I am led to believe that day glow vests are now the National Dress code.

 

 

[robinsm]

Yep, theres idiots, officious idiots, lunatics and then theres CASA avmed. These guys are a joke. More people are killed on the roads in one year than people killed by medically obese pilots with more than 42 neck measurements through out the history of private flying. Inmates are running asylum now. Empire building procedes apace.

 

 

[Brett]

Going through this now,,,, on my second trail and look like having to buy a cpap machine to stay with letters on my plane instead of numbers... so over it. I physically feel no better after 6 weeks on the machine but my figures look better so CASA, I'm sure have shares in resmed products.

 

 

[Camel]

Casa have proven beyond any doubt they know more about nothing than most people ! The are Stupid !

 

English test ! Fn stupid ! medical Fn stupid ! You could make a long list ! How about they wake up and do something smart and disappear off the face of aviation ! Would it. Be safer for private pilots ! You bet, because most people want to stay safe ! Casa are the problem !

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Sure Camel, but do you have an opinion on CASA or not?

 

 

[shafs64]

I found out a few years ago i had sleep a disorder after talking to my doctor he suggested the sleep study and so i now have a sleep machine. they are worth it. I tried to get my class 2 back a few years ago but then decided that i didn't want to play there game.

 

 

[robinsm]

If you can drive a car and get a licence, what is the difference in flying a private aircraft. I can understand stringent limits on commercial pilots flying passengers, but why does someone flying locally for fun need the same limits. If you can get your car licence, why not a private flying licence.?

 

 

[Camel]

Because ! Casa want to justify their jobs ! Casa are stupid ! Casa have no clue of the real world ! Only reasons I can think of why Casa cause so much grief !

 

 

[old man emu]

Because emus can't fly, CASA's pseudo-science does not affect me, but I've been put into a difficult position work-wise by BMI stupidity.

 

Recently I underwent my annual medical to retain my Bus Driver Authority. My blood pressure was recorded as 122/84, pulse 64, all other neurological, eyesight and clinical (blood, flexibility etc) were "Normal". However, at 118 Kg and 178 cms, my BMI calculated at 37.2, which is above the cut-off point of 35. So, my medical clearance is not available until I see a sleep apnoea specialist. According to my wife, who unfortunately has insomnia, I don't have the symptoms of sleep apnoea when I am asleep. I don't express the symptoms of narcolepsy. I'm as good as many younger blokes in putting in a full day's physical labour.

 

However, 37.2 is more than 35, so, according to the Authorities, I must be suffering from a debilitating condition.

 

But what is this magical Index?

 

BMI is a calculated number, and it is used to describe the body mass of a person in terms of the body mass values of a population. The body mass index is calculated based on the following formula:

 

Bodyweight in kilograms divided by height in meters squared

 

or

 

BMI = x KG / (y M * y M)

 

Where: x=bodyweight in KG y=height in m

 

The body mass index (BMI) is a statistic developed by Adolphe Quetelet in the 1900’s for evaluating body mass. It is not related to gender and age. It uses the same formula for men as for women and children. There is it's first fault. Blind Freddy could see that there are major differences in the composition of the bodies of men, women and children, so a 'one formula fits all' approach is questionable.

 

The values used to determine "health" of an individual are:

 

Risk of co-morbidities

 

 

Underweight <18.50 Low (but risk of other clinical problems increased)

 

Normal range 18.50 - 24.99 Average

 

Overweight: >25.00

 

Preobese 25.00 - 29.99 Increased

 

Obese class 1 30.00 - 34.99 Moderate

 

Obese class 2 35.00 - 39.99 Severe

 

Obese class 3 >40.00 Very severe

 

For me to be at the top end of the BMI range for a healthy weight, I would have to weigh 79.3 kg. Using a term from my dad's army service, at 79.3 kg (12 stone 7 lbs), I'd be as thin as a .303 pull-through.

 

Who was this Adolphe Quetelet anyway?

 

Adolphe Quetelet (1796-1874) was a Belgian mathematician, astronomer and statistician, who developed a passionate interest in probability calculus that he applied to study human physical characteristics and social aptitudes. He had no medical qualification, such as they were in the first quarter of the 19th Century when he published is principal work, 'A Treatise of Man and the development of his faculties' in 1835. For those of you who would like to know exactly what he was saying, here's a link: A treatise on man and the development of his faculties : M. A. Quetelet : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive

 

The calculation formula itself is said to be flawed. Nick Trefethen, Professor of Numerical Analysis at Oxford University's Mathematical Institute, in a letter to The Economist explained that BMI leads to confusion and misinformation. Trefethen explained that during Quetelet's time there were no calculators, computers or electronic devices - which is probably why he opted for a super-simple system. Trefethen wonders why institutions today on both sides of the Atlantic continue using the same flawed-BMI formula. Trefethen believes a better calculation than the present {weight/height^2} for BMI would be {weight/height^2.5}. "Certainly if you plot typical weights of people against their heights, the result comes out closer to height^2.5 than height^2."

 

Using Trefethen's new formula, my BMI calculates as

 

118/178^2.5

 

= 118 / 4.227

 

= 27.91

 

Which is well under the magic number 35.

 

So which formula is correct? The one determined using a first quarter 19th Century population and simplified for easier calculation, or the one based on a 21st Century population using more accurate calculating tools?

 

Old Man Emu

 

 

[bexrbetter]

... see that there are major differences in the composition of the bodies of men and women

Yes, I notice as often as I can.

 

 

[red750]

I'm not overweight, I'm under-tall.

 

 

[old man emu]

see that there are major differences in the composition of the bodies of men and women. Yes, I notice as often as I can.

The aim of the game is to get those differences together as often as possible.

 

 

[old man emu]

OOPs, I made a mistake. Using Trefethen's formula doesn't bring about the massive change in BMI number that I incorrectly calculated. His formula reduced my BMI by one unit, not 10.

 

Herein is a calculator that you can use to work out your more reasonable BMI

 

New BMI (New Body Mass Index)

 

 

[geoffreywh]

ALL the world's rugby (union and league) players are then, according to their neck sizes and BMI's, obese. Who will be the first to tell them? Not me.

 

 

[onetrack]

I have never considered myself overweight, and have always been able to pass every ordinary medical, where I've been checked for general health.

 

My BP is 130 over 80, I can still jog a couple of kms with ease, and I still do modest amounts of heavy physical work almost daily.

 

The last docs notes after a checkup, stated "in overall good health" on the notes, my neck measurement is 38, I've never had a medical problem of any concern, and even my optometrist said my eyes were, "quite good for someone my age" (I'm 68).

 

Yet the standard BMI calculations says I'm overweight at 27.55 - and the "new BMI" still says I'm overweight, at 27.88!

 

I think it's time there was a whole new BMI measurement system devised, which takes into account a persons build, age, and general agility.

 

Everyone is a different body shape - there are people with long trunks and short legs, people with short trunks and long legs, people with lightly-structured legs and heavier upper body, and people with heavy-structure legs and a light upper body.

 

There are people with anorexic build, and there are people, "built like the proverbial brick $h!thouse". There are people with necks so thick, they're the same diameter as their head.

 

People gain weight naturally as they age - they simply just get heavier in build. If you're over 50, look back at your youthful photos, and see how scrawny you looked.

 

I was 57kgs when I was 20! I'm 75kgs now, and no-one has ever told me I seriously need to lose weight. I can still bend over and touch my toes without struggling!

 

To try and say that one very basic equation, as regards body dimensions, height and weight - applied to every type of person - which produces a result that is fixed, and has no variation, and can be used to destroy peoples lives and jobs - is complete madness, and needs to be challenged at every level.

 

 

[Birdseye]

Seems that CASA haven't kept up with trends in the fashion world. Skinny chicks are out.

 

 

[coljones]

Because emus can't fly, CASA's pseudo-science does not affect me, but I've been put into a difficult position work-wise by BMI stupidity.Recently I underwent my annual medical to retain my Bus Driver Authority. My blood pressure was recorded as 122/84, pulse 64, all other neurological, eyesight and clinical (blood, flexibility etc) were "Normal". However, at 118 Kg and 178 cms, my BMI calculated at 37.2, which is above the cut-off point of 35. So, my medical clearance is not available until I see a sleep apnoea specialist. According to my wife, who unfortunately has insomnia, I don't have the symptoms of sleep apnoea when I am asleep. I don't express the symptoms of narcolepsy. I'm as good as many younger blokes in putting in a full day's physical labour.

 

However, 37.2 is more than 35, so, according to the Authorities, I must be suffering from a debilitating condition.

 

But what is this magical Index?

 

BMI is a calculated number, and it is used to describe the body mass of a person in terms of the body mass values of a population. The body mass index is calculated based on the following formula:

 

Bodyweight in kilograms divided by height in meters squared

 

or

 

BMI = x KG / (y M * y M)

 

Where: x=bodyweight in KG y=height in m

 

The body mass index (BMI) is a statistic developed by Adolphe Quetelet in the 1900’s for evaluating body mass. It is not related to gender and age. It uses the same formula for men as for women and children. There is it's first fault. Blind Freddy could see that there are major differences in the composition of the bodies of men, women and children, so a 'one formula fits all' approach is questionable.

 

The values used to determine "health" of an individual are:

 

Risk of co-morbidities

 

 

Underweight <18.50 Low (but risk of other clinical problems increased)

 

Normal range 18.50 - 24.99 Average

 

Overweight: >25.00

 

Preobese 25.00 - 29.99 Increased

 

Obese class 1 30.00 - 34.99 Moderate

 

Obese class 2 35.00 - 39.99 Severe

 

Obese class 3 >40.00 Very severe

 

For me to be at the top end of the BMI range for a healthy weight, I would have to weigh 79.3 kg. Using a term from my dad's army service, at 79.3 kg (12 stone 7 lbs), I'd be as thin as a .303 pull-through.

 

Who was this Adolphe Quetelet anyway?

 

Adolphe Quetelet (1796-1874) was a Belgian mathematician, astronomer and statistician, who developed a passionate interest in probability calculus that he applied to study human physical characteristics and social aptitudes. He had no medical qualification, such as they were in the first quarter of the 19th Century when he published is principal work, 'A Treatise of Man and the development of his faculties' in 1835. For those of you who would like to know exactly what he was saying, here's a link: A treatise on man and the development of his faculties : M. A. Quetelet : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive

 

The calculation formula itself is said to be flawed. Nick Trefethen, Professor of Numerical Analysis at Oxford University's Mathematical Institute, in a letter to The Economist explained that BMI leads to confusion and misinformation. Trefethen explained that during Quetelet's time there were no calculators, computers or electronic devices - which is probably why he opted for a super-simple system. Trefethen wonders why institutions today on both sides of the Atlantic continue using the same flawed-BMI formula. Trefethen believes a better calculation than the present {weight/height^2} for BMI would be {weight/height^2.5}. "Certainly if you plot typical weights of people against their heights, the result comes out closer to height^2.5 than height^2."

 

Using Trefethen's new formula, my BMI calculates as

 

118/178^2.5

 

= 118 / 4.227

 

= 27.91

 

Which is well under the magic number 35.

 

So which formula is correct? The one determined using a first quarter 19th Century population and simplified for easier calculation, or the one based on a 21st Century population using more accurate calculating tools?

 

Old Man Emu

You can't use your "new" BMIs with the old grades of redispositions. You need to associate new grades with the new BMIs "NBMI". An NBMI of 27 might mean that you are morbidly obese rather than Whippet thin.

 

 

[shafs64]

One of the issues i find being on the larger size with flying is when a fellow pilot invites you to go flying and you have to decline as you will most likely put his aircraft over MTOW