RAA Pilot Certificate and 25nm

[BirdDog]

Now, I know this has been done to death, but this has myself and a mate puzzled, and it goes like this....

 

So my buddy (PPL Holder) asks how my flying is going etc etc, and we got to discussing 25nm restriction without X-Country and he says...

 

"Hmm can you land 20nm away and then go another 20nm?"

 

I say no, and him being like he is says...

 

"Let's look it up!"

 

So we jump on the RAA website and check out the ops manual and we find the following;

 

CROSS COUNTRY ENDORSEMENT (X)

 

 

In order to act as pilot in command of a recreational aeroplane at a distance greater than 25 nautical miles from the original point of departure a Pilot Certificate holder must hold a RAAus Cross Country (X) Endorsement.

 

Note: Consecutive flights of 25 nautical miles do not comply with this requirement.

 

 

Now, this got us into a heavy discussion, and as neither of us are legal experts, we called another buddy who is... sent him that clause and asked for what he thought it meant. Here's what he said...

 

"You need to break it down, so lets do that....

 

 

 

That clause says to me that in order to travel greater than 25nm, you are required to hold a Cross Country Endorsement.

 

 

 

Then the note says.... Consecutive flights of 25nm don't comply with this requirement, and therefor don't need the cross country endorsement. If what you are asking is, can you fly multiple legs to travel 50nm, my interpretation is yes"

 

That left my original buddy gloating... so I am putting out there to you guys for comment. I was trained, and always had the understanding that you can't hop. BUT.... As my buddy said...

 

"If you land 20nm away, how long do you have to stay there for before it becomes the original point of departure?"

 

He has a point!!

 

Let's discuss!

 

Cheers

 

J

 

 

[BirdDog]

Oh... And I just looked up the RPL data on the CASA site and it states...

 

• flying no more than 25nm from the aerodrome where the flight began, the designated training area, or a direct route between the two
   
   
  

 

 

Interesting!

 

 

[Happyflyer]

Get a x country endorsement and you won't have to worry about bush lawyer interpretations.

 

 

[BirdDog]

ahah! I am booked in for my test in 2 weeks. But it's very interesting when you read it!

 

 

[turboplanner]

Now, I know this has been done to death, but this has myself and a mate puzzled, and it goes like this....So my buddy (PPL Holder) asks how my flying is going etc etc, and we got to discussing 25nm restriction without X-Country and he says...

 

"Hmm can you land 20nm away and then go another 20nm?"

 

I say no, and him being like he is says...

 

"Let's look it up!"

 

So we jump on the RAA website and check out the ops manual and we find the following;

 

CROSS COUNTRY ENDORSEMENT (X)

 

 

In order to act as pilot in command of a recreational aeroplane at a distance greater than 25 nautical miles from the original point of departure a Pilot Certificate holder must hold a RAAus Cross Country (X) Endorsement.

 

Note: Consecutive flights of 25 nautical miles do not comply with this requirement.

 

 

Now, this got us into a heavy discussion, and as neither of us are legal experts, we called another buddy who is... sent him that clause and asked for what he thought it meant. Here's what he said...

 

"You need to break it down, so lets do that....

 

 

 

That clause says to me that in order to travel greater than 25nm, you are required to hold a Cross Country Endorsement.

 

 

 

Then the note says.... Consecutive flights of 25nm don't comply with this requirement, and therefor don't need the cross country endorsement. If what you are asking is, can you fly multiple legs to travel 50nm, my interpretation is yes"

 

That left my original buddy gloating... so I am putting out there to you guys for comment. I was trained, and always had the understanding that you can't hop. BUT.... As my buddy said...

 

"If you land 20nm away, how long do you have to stay there for before it becomes the original point of departure?"

 

He has a point!!

 

Let's discuss!

 

Cheers

 

J

There will always be imbeciles.

At this phase the pilot is not cleared for Navigation, which is a subject a bit bigger than turning on a gps.

 

It also encompasses meteorology; and a key factor is that within 25 nm of your training base the weather pattern should be reasonably compliant with the weather you took off in, and therefore reasonably safe for a newbie.

 

We had a similar very spirited discussion on this, and the clever dick who thought he'd found a way around the 25 nm limit, got himself lost some months later.

 

The GA idea is far better, a specific training area, where the instructor can show the student the boundaries and the student can focus on flying until he is qualified to navigate.

 

And BTW, I'd love to see someone try an argument that the original point of departure, usually the flying club base mysteriously relocated itself again and again to follow the dumb pilot.

 

I had a practical experience of this a few years ago when refuelling at Parkes. A Bonanza flew in and a young family got out to refuel. We swapped stories, and there's was that they had taken off from Bankstown to have a look at the Blue Mountains and the weather was so beautiful they had continued on to Bathurst, and now here they were in Parkes, and they might continue on and have a look at West Wyalong.

 

Soon after we both departed, and the Bonanza gave his call to Sydney Centre, a voice came back XXX where are you tracking for? The Bonanza said West Wyalong, and Centre said "Do you have a flight plan. On receiving the no, we heard these words "XXX" Land immediately, report to Sydney Centre by telephone!

 

 

[BirdDog]

Yep! I am glad that I have done my Nav training. It teaches you a whole lot more than you think. :)

 

Back to the 25nm though... and this is a legitimate question from my PPL buddy. What is the originating AD? My plane is 19nm from another AD, and at times it lives it's life between these 2 ADs. Sometimes it's at one for weeks at a time, and then other times it can live at the other for weeks at a time. So where does my 25nm start and end?

 

I am not being silly, and I don't really care, in 2 weeks I will have my endorsement - but it's a good question right! Today it might be at AD 1, but then tomorrow, I might leave it at AD2.

 

 

[ben87r]

The intent of the law has to be taken into account, and will be in court. We all know what the laws intent is, for the flight to arrive at the same aerodrome it departed from excluding an emergency.

 

Would your PPL mate be happy to defend his position to a judge?

 

The regs should state something in legalese saying that an aircraft flown by a PIC not having a navigation endorsement is prohibited from landing at an aerodrome outside of 25nm from the original and first departure for the flight or subsequent flights.

 

Note, the above does not prohibit the PIC from flying the same aircraft from a different aerodrome should the aircraft have been flown by a suitable qualified PIC to navigate the aircraft between the two aerodromes.

 

Note2 notwithstanding the previous this does not relieve the responsibility of general competency for the restricted PIC to be competent with the required procedures and relevant airspace qualifications for the new aerodrome.

 

Your mates the reason we have to put up with the rubbish legal dribble that we have been given.

 

 

[BirdDog]

Thanks, but it still does not answer my question - My aircraft lives between 2 airfields! What happens in that instance? They are 20nm apart. In fact, I have 4 airfields within 25nm. I am sure there are many other pilots who have 2 strips in close proximity. What would happen in that case?

 

So... without sounding stupid... Let's say my plane is at AD1 today, and I fly it to AD2 where I leave it overnight. Tomorrow I go back and go for a fly. Where is my 25nm boundary now? It's a reasonable question.

 

Oh.. and the regs don't state anything about landing. They just state not more than 25nm from the departing airfield. They don't even mention anything about consecutive flights. Which is no surprise really.

 

 

[Guest cosmos]

Let's say my plane is at AD1 today, and I fly it to AD2 where I leave it overnight.

Well you can't fly it there in the first place as you can only land at your departure airport.

 

Thats what we got told anyway!

 

 

[BirdDog]

No. There is nothing stopping you landing at another AD. As long as it's within 25nm.

 

 

[Guest cosmos]

No. There is nothing stopping you landing at another AD. As long as it's within 25nm.

I would be asking casa that....

thats not what we were told at one of there seminars, remember this is basically a gfpt

 

 

[ben87r]

It actually answers your question in the first line.

 

 

[ben87r]

This has been done a million times by new pilots both GA and RA, same answers each time.

 

 

[BirdDog]

Well no. I have already asked casa re landing at another AD and the answer was as long as 25nm.

 

 

[BirdDog]

Plus... why would the RAA Ops manual even mention consecutive flights.

 

So let's get that straight. Landing is not a problem.

 

 

[Guest cosmos]

Email casa, post there response.

 

At least you will have it in writing and will have it from the horses mouth.

 

 

[Guest cosmos]

oops your raa im casa oops

 

My mistake

 

 

[BirdDog]

Interesting how we think we know the rules.

 

Having dealt with casa regulation for 12 years, nothing surprises me anymore.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Yep! I am glad that I have done my Nav training. It teaches you a whole lot more than you think. :)Back to the 25nm though... and this is a legitimate question from my PPL buddy. What is the originating AD? My plane is 19nm from another AD, and at times it lives it's life between these 2 ADs. Sometimes it's at one for weeks at a time, and then other times it can live at the other for weeks at a time. So where does my 25nm start and end?

 

I am not being silly, and I don't really care, in 2 weeks I will have my endorsement - but it's a good question right! Today it might be at AD 1, but then tomorrow, I might leave it at AD2.

If you are at one AD, and take off, the flight ends there. If you land at the other AD it's within your 25 Nm training zone, so no problem.

If you park it, and it lives there for a time and is your second base, then there are grounds to say that if you have been around the area with an instructor, and you decide a reasonable time later to go for a flight in a direction other that your first base, then it would be a flight from the second base.

 

However, If you departed the first base, landed at the second, had lunch, cup of coffee, went into town etc, and you then took off again, no one would be fooled by thinking that would qualify as anything other than the second leg of a flight, so you would be restricted to 25 Nm from the first base.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Interesting how we think we know the rules.Having dealt with casa regulation for 12 years, nothing surprises me anymore.

I think you'll find that's a Recreational Aviation Australia rule.

 

 

[BirdDog]

If you are at one AD, and take off, the flight ends there. If you land at the other AD it's within your 25 Nm training zone, so no problem.If you park it, and it lives there for a time and is your second base, then there are grounds to say that if you have been around the area with an instructor, and you decide a reasonable time later to go for a flight in a direction other that your first base, then it would be a flight from the second base.

However, If you departed the first base, landed at the second, had lunch, cup of coffee, went into town etc, and you then took off again, no one would be fooled by thinking that would qualify as anything other than the second leg of a flight, so you would be restricted to 25 Nm from the first base.

Thanks Turbo.

 

Was talking with my instructor about this today. I tend to agree with your way of thinking, only, where I flew with my instructor really has no bearing on where I can fly. For example... If I get you to fly my plane to somewhere in WA, then I am quite entitled to get myself to that AD, and fly it within 25nm of that AD, having never flown there before.

 

I just find it increasingly interesting how a simple yet fundamental part of our rule set is also still a bit grey. I have been working within Civil Aviation for nearly 12 years, and was hoping RAA might be a little different, but it seems not.

 

What is interesting is, as soon as someone pipes up with a view, many are quick to jump on you - when we are simply just discussing a topic. It seems like it's taboo! Is it that bad to have a discussion, or should I just shut up and tow the line.

 

 

[SDQDI]

Well seriously we moan and groan about regs being overly complicated as it is so why not show we have the common sense to interpret this one as it was intended!

 

To travel further than 25nm you need a cross country endorsement, consecutive flights DO NOT comply with this requirement.

 

I am not a legal guru (I am a farmer!) but even I am smart enough to read the intent of this one. I would hate to have that feller who interpreted it any differently represent me in this matter.

 

I mean how hard is it to understand the phrase 'do not comply'?!

 

As for over nighters I would be talking to the RAA ops team before I went on a weeklong trip of 25nm per day, I think a decent casa lawyer would say that your week long foray was one trip and I think you could still be in murky water.

 

At the end of the day just get the cross country endo, like has been said there is more to it than just navigation.

 

 

[M61A1]

Just go and get the XC endo is a crap answer.......

 

I think that it's something that could be easily improved. 25 NM is nothing, and yes I know that GA is even less. I understand that the intent is don't go more than 25 NM full stop. By the time you have your pilot cert you have should have learned enough to cover most of the XC. It's not nearly as difficult as some make out.

 

Realistically, the figure could easily be changed to 50 to 100 NM.

 

I think that the OP's intent was the lack of clarity, eg you fly your aircraft to it's new home strip 24 miles from the old one, how long do you have to be there before you can fly a 25 NM radius from there?

 

 

[SDQDI]

Just go and get it isn't a crap answer at all. I think 25nm is reasonable, any further than that and you should have cross country knowledge, 50-100nm and you should have an alternate and a reasonable understanding of navs.

 

As for flying to a new strip, I think that the pilots intent would be important so flying 24nm to a new home strip and then operating from it should be looked on a lot more favourably than someone who flew the 24nm and then landed and flew on so they could get further from their operating field.

 

 

[M61A1]

Yes it is, but it wasn't particularly aimed at yourself. I started some discussion about is a few years back, and instead of reasonable discussion, most replies involved being told to go and get a my XC endo, with no real substance.

 

I have my XC endo, and for the life of me, I can't see what the fuss is about. On your basic pilot cert you still need to plan your fuel, negotiate CTA and restricted airspace, understand the weather, operate your radio effectively and know where you are going.