RAA Pilot Certificate and 25nm

[BirdDog]

Wow! I go away for a few days, and come back to pages to read! :)

 

Awesome discussion though, and is always good.

 

Fingers crossed Saturday week I will have my XCountry endo. Whoo hoo!

 

A couple of things I will add....

 

I don't care who you are, the way those regs (and plenty of other CASA regs) have been written - is crap! Pure crap, and can easily be done better. That said, I personally think 25nm is way enough! Where I fly, in less than 20nm in one direction puts me on the other side of hills with absolutely no clear visibility of where the home AD is. Thankfully there is a dirty big ocean on one side that will help with that! :)

 

However, fly at a mates home AD that is less than 1 hour flight away inland, and everything looks the same, with no easy identifier as to where the AD is. So I get the whole argument for Nav. It's the very reason why I am getting mine, and always had the intention to get it. Heck, I did most of my training flying my plane home across the country with my instructor beside me.

 

But what this thread has shown is the regs are still, to this day, poorly written. What that does is (as it has done in my industry) is caused confusion amongst pilots. It causes heated discussions where opinions conflict, and it's not good.

 

Why could it not just be written better like...

 

You must not fly more than 25nm from the airport you took off from.

 

You must return to the the airport you took of from without landing at another airport.

 

SOLVED!

 

But no... The same thing has been happening for years. The regulators write a rule. The lawyers rewrite it. The regulators rewrite it again, and the lawyers have another go, and before you know it, the Chinese Whispers like process means what spits out the other side carries much ambiguity.

 

I am not saying we scrap the 25nm. It's plenty far. Just make sure it's written properly. It's not that hard! Sheesh!

 

But anyways... Like I said... I like a healthy discussion, if it brings awareness to the next pilot that has just gone solo that he must stay 25nm from his AD - Then good! :) Maybe we saved him from getting lost on his next flight.

 

Cheers

 

J

 

 

[M61A1]

Where I fly, in less than 20nm in one direction puts me on the other side of hills with absolutely no clear visibility of where the home AD is. Thankfully there is a dirty big ocean on one side that will help with that! :)

J

Surely those same hills that block your view give you are giant clue as to where you are.....

 

 

[kaz3g]

Surely those same hills that block your view give you are giant clue as to where you are.....

Yep...somewhere between Cape York and Mt Gambier.

 

Kaz

 

 

[M61A1]

Yep...somewhere between Cape York and Mt Gambier.Kaz

You could argue that if you closed you eyes while someone dropped you somewhere, but seriously, if you flew over the mountains ( and they have peculiar peak and ridges in places) you know you have to fly back over them to get home.

Please tell me our rec pilots aren't that thick.

 

 

[poteroo]

Our training area ends along the south side of the Stirling ranges - 27nm from the airport. Another good obvious geographical feature is Mt Manypeaks some 23nm east and Denmark town the same west. So, the advice to pilots here is stay inside those locations. Given that they are often without GPS, it seems practical and sensible and I have never had a pilot arguing the toss over it. But, some pilots obviously want to split hairs.

 

One RPPL from Perth is reported to have been pinged in Darwin when he made a meal of getting a clearance! Now that's a lot of consecutive 25nm sectors!

 

happy days,

 

 

[red750]

If you want/need to fly to another airport, more than 25nm away, get the xc endo. If you want a longer flight, be creative within the 25nm radius. If you have the passenger endo, and want to show something around an hour, it's not hard. Note this is for distance illustration purposes only, and does not take into account airspace restrictions, etc. You stay within the 25nm radius, and land at the airport of departure.

 

 

 

[storchy neil]

What is this crap can't some understand that by reading section d 20.5 ithink it is what is difficult about 25 nm flight RETURN back to your take of strip for Christ sake

 

You make a landing 25 nm away from your take off point and take of again that is ANOTHER flight like it or not

 

Please explain to the insurance co why you landed when the sheeet hits the fan Neil

 

 

[BirdDog]

Surely those same hills that block your view give you are giant clue as to where you are.....

Yeah man, of course they do. I still think 25nm is far enough.

 

 

[BirdDog]

What is this crap can't some understand that by reading section d 20.5 ithink it is what is difficult about 25 nm flight RETURN back to your take of strip for Christ sakeYou make a landing 25 nm away from your take off point and take of again that is ANOTHER flight like it or not

Please explain to the insurance co why you landed when the sheeet hits the fan Neil

Because Neil, if, as you say "when the sheet hits the fan" the lawyers will have a field day. Why is it so hard to ask for decent regulation to be written.

 

As I have asked earlier, what defines the take off point? If you read back through the thread, my aircraft can be between 2 ADs. So how long does it have to be on the ground at AD2 before it becomes, as you call it, "the take off point"? 1 hour, 1 day, 1 week?? How long! See the ambiguity. And as I am now no longer a student, it can't be the "training AD", because I own the aircraft, and I am no longer a student of the club.

 

So, let me ask you this Neil,

 

Example 1

 

I take off today from AD1 (Where my plane was for the last week) and I land 20nm away at AD2. It stays there for 1 night. The next morning I get up - Where is my 25nm boundary now?

 

Example 2

 

I take off today from AD1 (Where my plane was for the last week) and I land 20nm away at AD2. It stays there for 5 nights. I go up again - Where is my 25nm boundary now?

 

See my point!

 

Now... it get's even uglier, because there is another AD less than 25nm from AD2. SO... If I decide to leave my plane at AD2 for say a month, I then go to AD3. Then... There is another AD less than 25 from that, so how long does the plane have to stay at AD3?

 

You see what I mean. The regulations don't account for the instance where the pilot does not leave his aircraft at 1AD, and does not account for an AD being within that 25nm. If it clearly stated that landing at another AD was not allowed, we would not be having this discussion.

 

And in case you are wondering, yes I am serious when I say it lives between 2 ADs. They are not they far apart and a bunch of us have planes, so we fly all over the place.

 

 

[Happyflyer]

They are not they far apart and a bunch of us have planes, so we fly all over the place.

Sounds like you need a cross country endorsement. The regulations could be worded in a much better way but I've never had a problem with the intent. A pilot certificate without a cross country endorsement as useful as having a boat without leaving the harbour. Why don't you write to the ops manager with your concerns and your suggested solutions?

 

 

[BirdDog]

Hey all,

 

For those still watching at home, I thought I would update you to advise that I now have my X-Country Endo - So all good for me. :)

 

Cheers all

 

J

 

 

[robinsm]

Before I got my CC endo, I used to fly to a country airstrip 22 NM away, land, have a quiet cup of coffee from the thermos, snooze under the wing and fly back home. Plenty to see within 25 NM, makes the CC endo morfe appealing to see more. Stop arguing and just enjoy the journey. Agree, once the CC endo is passed then go for it. Its a big country and most of it is available even by the slowest Raa aircraft.

 

 

[coljones]

Hey all,For those still watching at home, I thought I would update you to advise that I now have my X-Country Endo - So all good for me. :)

 

Cheers all

 

J

Congratulations!! Set yourself up for a visit to HARS in Wollongong, they make great steak sandwiches. Don't forget your ASIC.

 

 

[Nightmare]

Congratulations!! Set yourself up for a visit to HARS in Wollongong, they make great steak sandwiches. Don't forget your ASIC.

I bought my first and current aircraft from a guy at YWOL.... Now that was a great 2 step XC flight to bring her home to YBCM. I had a stop over at Narromine with a sleep over at the caravan park next door to the airport.

[Groppo Australia]

Now, I know this has been done to death, but this has myself and a mate puzzled, and it goes like this....So my buddy (PPL Holder) asks how my flying is going etc etc, and we got to discussing 25nm restriction without X-Country and he says...

 

"Hmm can you land 20nm away and then go another 20nm?"

 

I say no, and him being like he is says...

 

"Let's look it up!"

 

So we jump on the RAA website and check out the ops manual and we find the following;

 

CROSS COUNTRY ENDORSEMENT (X)

 

 

In order to act as pilot in command of a recreational aeroplane at a distance greater than 25 nautical miles from the original point of departure a Pilot Certificate holder must hold a RAAus Cross Country (X) Endorsement.

 

Note: Consecutive flights of 25 nautical miles do not comply with this requirement.

 

 

Now, this got us into a heavy discussion, and as neither of us are legal experts, we called another buddy who is... sent him that clause and asked for what he thought it meant. Here's what he said...

 

"You need to break it down, so lets do that....

 

 

 

That clause says to me that in order to travel greater than 25nm, you are required to hold a Cross Country Endorsement.

 

 

 

Then the note says.... Consecutive flights of 25nm don't comply with this requirement, and therefor don't need the cross country endorsement. If what you are asking is, can you fly multiple legs to travel 50nm, my interpretation is yes"

 

That left my original buddy gloating... so I am putting out there to you guys for comment. I was trained, and always had the understanding that you can't hop. BUT.... As my buddy said...

 

"If you land 20nm away, how long do you have to stay there for before it becomes the original point of departure?"

 

He has a point!!

 

Let's discuss!

 

Cheers

 

J

I think you will find the intent of the rule is exactly what, you know in your bones, it is trying to achieve. I also think that if you break it down, you will find that it says exactly that. It is just poorly worded. The "requirement", in this instance, is what you, as the pilot, need to do to legally act as pilot in command of an aircraft traveling more than 25nm from your original departure aerodrome. By saying that consecutive 25nm flights do not comply with that requirement, means you are not compliant with the requirements that allow you to be pilot in command if you venture more than 25nm from the aerodrome of origin, which, you could safely say, would be where you did your daily inspection and started the aircraft for the first time that day. Being that consecutive means to follow each other continuously, then it is safe to say that if you flew 25nm's, overnighted, flew another 25nm etc etc then no one would care because on each given day you are literally within eyesight of where you departed, unless you are running around at 500ft. Either way, pretty hard to get lost or get caught in weather.. but considering that, it would take you 3 days to go 75nm and then 3 days to come back, in which case you have far too much time and money on your hands and would be far better off spending 5 days doing your cross country endorsement and then flying the 150nm round trip on the 6th day and do it in one day. Anyone that tries to find grammatical loopholes in aviation regulations, especially inexperienced pilots, contrary to what everyone knows the intent of the regulation to be, are a danger and detriment to the themselves and the rest of the aviation community. Far better to play by the rules.

 

 

[spacesailor]

But You have said "25 then overnight", next New day Another 25 & bedy byes, Now I have to work out were to Start from, to get a none controlled airstrip 25nm away.

 

May even join the air-race if enough small strips can be written into the route .

 

spacesailor

 

 

[BirdDog]

Congratulations!! Set yourself up for a visit to HARS in Wollongong, they make great steak sandwiches. Don't forget your ASIC.

Yep! I am in YWOL all the time. Good little AD. :)

 

 

[coljones]

Yep! I am in YWOL all the time. Good little AD. :)

looks like you will have to plan a trip to Cessnock - please report back and give us a heads up on things like locating the cafe, distance to the flight line etc.

 

 

[BirdDog]

looks like you will have to plan a trip to Cessnock - please report back and give us a heads up on things like locating the cafe, distance to the flight line etc.

Locating the Cafe at YWOL? Just head for the dirty big QANTAS jet - you can't miss it! :)

 

 

[coljones]

Locating the Cafe at YWOL? Just head for the dirty big QANTAS jet - you can't miss it! :)

Park near the eastern windsock just opposite the 747 and walk over to and through the HARS hanger. Be nice to all the people in yellow fluro and don't forget your ASIC.