Turning opinions etc

[APenNameAndThatA]

From my ignorance (really) perspective, there seems to be a temptation for inflation of access, which will cause inflation of requirements. I already think people should fly with radios and artificial horizons if you have a plane with a cabin, so maybe I'm the last person who should post here.

 

 

[Yenn]

I respect your idea that people should fly with radios and artificial horizons. Could you explain why you hold that opinion?

 

 

[turboplanner]

From my ignorance (really) perspective, there seems to be a temptation for inflation of access, which will cause inflation of requirements. I already think people should fly with radios and artificial horizons if you have a plane with a cabin, so maybe I'm the last person who should post here.

Retraining, more training on procedures, navigation, radio, met, and a more stringent , medical could be things that a lot of people aren't looking for.

The irony is that in the big Cities, private GA is being pushed out of CTA, and doing quite well side by side with RA, helping to secure those peripheral airfields.

 

 

[frank marriott]

artificial horizons

For VFR flying the big horizon in the windscreen is pretty good.

 

 

[Mike Borgelt]

comment deleted (Play the topic not the person...mod)

 

 

[Keith Page]

If there is a mishap, near miss or some other lapsed moment. Then there is the enquiry with all the noise, bells and whistles- then the "reports" and the fix is; "another rule" not a restructure of procedures.

 

KP

 

 

[turboplanner]

turboplanner, edited..mod

 

I know for sure that GFA and RAAus have introduced lots of new rules in the last few years as has CASA. Part 61 for starters. Otherwise known as a "charlie foxtrot".

I'm sorry to make more noise, but since June 2010, CARs have increased from 325 to 351 currently; that's less than most large companies but it does seem to worry people.

Someone working in the Mines or in manufacturing who has been through the ATO process could probably help you to understand Part 61.

 

As for "supervision" how do you supervise when someone has just taken off in a single seat aircraft and disappeared over the horizon?

The Self Administration Organisations have the duty of care; it's up to them to develop their own policy.

 

I know some "trained instructors" in both GFA and RAAus. In GFA they have a very poor record of smashing gliders, and injuring and killing students. Last weekend at Gympie is the most recent accident I know of. I won't go into the circumstances but from what I've been told by one of the repairers quoting on the wreckage it should not have happened. You might like to look up the nasty accident that happened on April 1, 2012 at Ararat. I know of one accidents in RAAus where the instructor was out of his depth.

GFA and RAA are both self administering organisations and they may well introduced their own rules and policies. If you have a beef with their safety why not take it up with them; they have the primary duty of care for their operations? Why let this go on to the point where CASA has to step in with ramp checks or other audits?

 

All of the following organisations are self administering; there's very little point in lumping all their rules and all CASA's rules in a big bucket and having a general spit.

 

CASA currently oversights the following self-administration organisations:

 

• Australian Ballooning Federation (ABF)
   
   
  
• Australian Parachute Federation Ltd (APF)
   
   
  
• Australian Skydiving Association (ASA)
   
   
  
• Australian Sport Rotorcraft Association (ASRA)
   
   
  
• Australian Warbirds Association Limited (AWAL)
   
   
  
• Gliding Federation of Australia (GFA)
   
   
  
• Hang Gliding Federation of Australia (HGFA)
   
   
  
• Model Aircraft Association of Australia (MAAA)
   
   
  
• Recreational Aviation Australia (RA-Aus)
   
   
  
• Sport Aircraft Association of Australia (SAAA)
   
   
  

 

 

 

Looks like there's some more noise coming too: Self-administration rules are changing

 

As for your suggestion about passenger training, how do you expect the passenger to stay current enough? In any case it was just one example of rule making stupidity, particularly as it is impossible to enforce.

As you say it was a suggestion.

 

[APenNameAndThatA]

I respect your idea that people should fly with radios and artificial horizons. Could you explain why you hold that opinion?

The important one is the AH. To common causes of fatal accidents are flight into IMC and stalling turning onto final. No AH plus IMC would be fatal. If you have an AH, or some accurate indicator of bank, you can train to turn onto final with 15 degrees of bank, and fly precisely. With no AH, I have no clue.

 

Getting back to weights, if you have a drifter, forget about it: you have no panel and are being economical. But if you are in $100 000 of airplane, what do you think you are doing?

 

I have about 25 hrs total, c172, c152 and Foxbat, so I do not declare myself an expert.

 

 

[frank marriott]

I have about 25 hrs total, c172, c152 and Foxbat, so I do not declare myself an expert

With due respect I think that explaines your comment, and I am hopeful that you will be introduced to "attitude" flying sooner rather then later - over reliance on instruments at this stage is at least questionable.

 

 

[kasper]

Agree with frank m on attitude flying. Using three core VFR instruments it's possible to execute a controlled turn out of imc.

 

If you are planning on flying in marginal weather on a regular basis I contend you really shouldn't be RAAus or HGFA but full GA with ifr rating and all the costs and training that goes with that.

 

Don't get me wrong. The LSA55 jab I learned on backnin the early 90's has an AH and a few extras ... because the owners were from GA ... I learned to use them as an add on to basic vfr flying ... then jumped in the drifter and taught people to fly with the bare minimum and turned out pilots that were equal to most GA in their basic aircraft skills if not better.

 

 

[APenNameAndThatA]

Agree with frank m on attitude flying. Using three core VFR instruments it's possible to execute a controlled turn out of imc.

... except in real life.

 

 

[APenNameAndThatA]

As you say, lower personal minimums would solve the flight into IMC issue.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Agree with frank m on attitude flying. Using three core VFR instruments it's possible to execute a controlled turn out of imc.

This subject comes up from time to time; it is theoretically possible; our airline pilots fly in IMC much of the time with a very high safety result. For a lot of aviators who are no longer with us it was possible for a few times, and that seems to be a common factor in a lot of accident reports.

If you look at the IMC training syllabus, and the continuous ongoing currency training flights required, you can see what it takes to match the way the airline pilots do it.

 

It's worth reading Motz's words from five years ago in the thread "Fatal Trike Accident at Cootamundra"

 

"Terribly sad news. A couple of old club members, and committee members. Thoughts are with the Family and friends.

 

Frankly, ive had a gut full. Im not here to point fingers at deceased people. But I am going to point fingers at the rest of us. WTF is wrong with us.?? What sort of culture have we nurtured, where a pilot of reasonable experience, can take off into the dark FROM NATFLY.. From the bloody busiest RAA gathering in the country. Witnessed by hundreds of pilots, and no doubt the powers that be in our organisation. WTF????

 

I am beside myself with anger at the moment, and alot of it is pointed at myself. While I have tried my best to enhance the safety culture from within, I have clearly failed. I know of 3 possible IMC incursions on the way to natfly, all by pilots I have had significant dealings and influence on. It appears I have been beating my head against a wall the whole time.

 

But for ANY pilot to conceive the idea of embarking on such a flight with the whole RAA watching clearly means the culture of aimenship and safety has gone to the dogs.

 

One of my instructors attended the "office" at Natfly to ask about printing up some weather for his return flight home. He was met with a Blank stare, and told to remove the weather printed (off the wall) some 8 hours before, and told to copy it. He was dumbfounded that apparently he was the first person to ask for printed weather. The first person, at a well attended flyin. Is it still the LAW to carry printed copies of the WX???... The blank stares, mind you, were given by high ranking RAA officials.

 

Some of the accidents and incidents of recent times in Australia really do begger belief. Weve had People running tanks dry and crashing with the other tank full. We have had instructors running out of fuel on TIF's, we have had people stall and spin into water after engine failures.. We have had people letting go of controls to shut doors and crashing. And now, to top it all off, we have a pilot take off into the dark while hundreds stood back and watched.

 

Im over it. Ive failed. I give up.

 

Andy out..."

 

As I recall, this trike had a car headlight fitted to the front of the trike.

 

 

[storchy neil]

Hey turbs how's this for safety

 

Allowed a LAME l2 l4 to repair aircraft with no repair manual what's so ever

 

Failed to investigate plane when requested to in writing

 

Has allowed 24 registered aircraft that has had leaking fuel tank to be used for training

 

CASA are just as bad as their response was RAAus problem Neil

 

 

[APenNameAndThatA]

I commend to you the Swiss Cheese model of safety created by James Reason. The model is that for something to go wrong, holes have to line up in the Swiss cheese. The more slices of Swiss cheese, the less likely that the holes will line up.

 

In the case of the trike accident, you might have needed, say, the pilot liking to show off to his peers, with a flying event ending after dark, with low cloud. If any of the factors were not present, the accident hypothetically would not have happened. Having an artificial horizon is an extra slice of cheese. That is why it is not completely logical to say that if you are going to fly in dubious weather you should go instrument rated. Many of the pilots who died did probably not intend to fly in dubious weather.

 

The Air Malaysia airplane shot down by Russian separatists was overflying a known conflict zone. According to an article I read in The Economist, it should have been perfectly safe to fly over the conflict zone because people know that aircraft over 30 000 feet are civilian and therefore the people firing the missiles know not to shoot down jet airliners! That's a pretty crap piece of Swiss cheese to stake your life on. The biggest news I can think of was that Lufthansa was also overflying the conflict zone. It was dumb luck that stopped the Russians shooting down a German jet! Imagine the consequences of that.

 

The flip side of all of this is that RAA is designed to be more likely to result in fatal accidents than GA. That's one reason that the planes are not allowed to carry so many people. More intense training does make pilots safer (so long as the training is not detrimental). Just ask Cirrus. Their planes were more dangerous than C182's and DA40's even with the parachute. More training has decreased the accident rate, apparently.

 

I wonder how to improve the safety culture of an organisation, without the organisation having the ability to throw people out. Of course, if people are thrown out, then the organisation becomes very CASA-like which is what people are trying to avoid. The culture of organisations is said to be set from the top down. That might work in a company where people turn up to work and interact with each other each day. RAA people are isolated from regular social interaction with one another, so in some ways RAA is not an organisation at all.

 

 

[Hargraves]

Well said sir. I have to agree completly with your post and will add the extra component of my view that bigger is seldom better for non professional (read recreational aviation) organizations. The members interest (non professional just recreational) are largely ignored or left behind. I suggest a real vote mailed out to RAA pilot members only, asking who wants to fly in controlled airspace, who wants MTOW increases, and who thinks RAA (the company) with no regional representatives is better than we had would result in a more accurate directive to the board that would benefit the silent majority of our pilots. Cheers Hargraves

 

 

[APenNameAndThatA]

With due respect I think that explaines your comment, and I am hopeful that you will be introduced to "attitude" flying sooner rather then later - over reliance on instruments at this stage is at least questionable.

Just looked up what "attitude flying is". Of course I was introduced to attitude flying. That's how I flew. But attitude flying will not tell you what 15 degrees is. And it will not tell you "Oh, I overbanked by five degrees". If you have an AH, you will be able to do better better attitude flying because you will see yourself overbank, look down and see how far you overbanked.

 

How is someone doing pure attitude flying to know if they are flying base turn at 15 degrees or 20 degrees? and if they overbank, how are they to know if it was by 5 degrees or 10 degrees? It's like I said the first time: the issue is precision.

 

20 + 10 = 30. A 30 degree bank will increase the G-forces, and stall speed, a non-trivial amount. Stalls turning onto final are very rare. But they are a very common cause of fatal accidents.

 

I am still not an expert on attitude flying, so I am still all ears.

 

 

[turboplanner]

The flip side of all of this is that RAA is designed to be more likely to result in fatal accidents than GA. That's one reason that the planes are not allowed to carry so many people.

An interesting concept, but that probably wasn't what the organisers were thinking at the time. It started out as illegal flying activity, morphed into a grudging allowance to fly within paddocks below 300 feet (in what we know is the most deadly layer of airspace), and arrived at flying while separated from high density airports with a maximum of two people and quite a list of safety requirements. Public Liability exposure won't let you go back the other way, ie accept more fatal accidents, but just write off the pilot; that's negligence.

 

I wonder how to improve the safety culture of an organisation, without the organisation having the ability to throw people out.

All the good Associations have compliance/behavioural sanctions. I was Chairman of an Appeals Tribunal handling appeals against sanctions of 1 month, 6 months 12 months, two years and life suspensions. There were no life suspensions in that time, but plenty of 6 months to two years, with most sanctions being upheld, some suspended sanctions based on certain improvements, and some dismissals due to wrongful sanctions.

This and the base culture provided a very safe environment, and it was all done with volunteers.

 

 

[frank marriott]

A 30 degree bank will increase the G-forces, and stall speed, a non-trivial amount. Stalls turning onto final are very rare. But they are a very common cause of fatal accidents.

How much do you think the stall speed is increased by on a 30° "descending" base turn.

 

Might be worth a visit to your flying school and brush up a bit of theory before suggesting everyone needs a AH for VFR flying. Get an instructor to take you up with the AH & T&B covered up - it might surprise you.

 

 

[Geoff13]

Just looked up what "attitude flying is". I am still not an expert on attitude flying, so I am still all ears.

And certainly won't get to be an expert on it by looking it up.

 

What people are saying to you here is that training and experience will teach you how to fly without those instruments.

 

Many planes do not have them and simply do not need them.

 

The only way to learn is to do it with an instructor sitting beside you.

 

IMHO the more time that your eyes are outside the cockpit on base and final the safer you will be.

 

 

[M61A1]

Just looked up what "attitude flying is". Of course I was introduced to attitude flying. That's how I flew. But attitude flying will not tell you what 15 degrees is. And it will not tell you "Oh, I overbanked by five degrees". If you have an AH, you will be able to do better better attitude flying because you will see yourself overbank, look down and see how far you overbanked.How is someone doing pure attitude flying to know if they are flying base turn at 15 degrees or 20 degrees? and if they overbank, how are they to know if it was by 5 degrees or 10 degrees? It's like I said the first time: the issue is precision.

 

20 + 10 = 30. A 30 degree bank will increase the G-forces, and stall speed, a non-trivial amount. Stalls turning onto final are very rare. But they are a very common cause of fatal accidents.

 

I am still not an expert on attitude flying, so I am still all ears.

I don't know how old you are or what you learned at school, but I'm just bewildered that you can't visually achieve a 30 deg bank plus or minus FA if you completed primary school.

Once you've seen 10, 15, 30, 60 or 90 degrees through the windscreen a couple of times, surely you can repeatedly replicate that without looking at a gauge.

 

 

[coljones]

Well said sir. I have to agree completly with your post and will add the extra component of my view that bigger is seldom better for non professional (read recreational aviation) organizations. The members interest (non professional just recreational) are largely ignored or left behind. I suggest a real vote mailed out to RAA pilot members only, asking who wants to fly in controlled airspace, who wants MTOW increases, and who thinks RAA (the company) with no regional representatives is better than we had would result in a more accurate directive to the board that would benefit the silent majority of our pilots. Cheers Hargraves

You just missed your chance Hargraves. You could have used the AGM to bring on a vote about that which you have concern. There will be another General Meeting early next year for you to urge the members on.

 

 

[nong]

Just looked up what "attitude flying is". Of course I was introduced to attitude flying. That's how I flew. But attitude flying will not tell you what 15 degrees is. And it will not tell you "Oh, I overbanked by five degrees". If you have an AH, you will be able to do better better attitude flying because you will see yourself overbank, look down and see how far you overbanked.How is someone doing pure attitude flying to know if they are flying base turn at 15 degrees or 20 degrees? and if they overbank, how are they to know if it was by 5 degrees or 10 degrees? It's like I said the first time: the issue is precision.

 

20 + 10 = 30. A 30 degree bank will increase the G-forces, and stall speed, a non-trivial amount. Stalls turning onto final are very rare. But they are a very common cause of fatal accidents.

 

I am still not an expert on attitude flying, so I am still all ears.

Your advice (born of ignorance) to use shallow bank angles in the circuit, is deadly when mis-applied. Thousands have died, and that includes plenty of instructors who thought it was a great idea to limit bank angle.

Maybe you could test your instructor by asking him/her to explain the practical limitations and deadly temptations of "turning flat".

 

 

[djpacro]

... It's like I said the first time: the issue is precision..... bank will increase the G-forces, and stall speed ....

Actually, bank does not increase G-forces! The elevator control is the only thing that can increase G-forces.My competition aerobatic students are judged on their angle of bank in a steep turn of 60 deg bank. 1 point off out of 10 for each 5 deg error (downgrades for other factors too) - they get top marks. Competition aerobatics is precision flying, try it sometime.

 

 

[facthunter]

Yes, bank in itself does not increase "G" forces which would then affect the speed at which the wing stalls.. Stick makes the wing "work" by changing AoA. Stall is not a speed either and in equilibrium level flight, weight becomes the modifier. More weight ,more lift required so more speed to provide the lift without reaching dangerous angles of attack. Dynamic loading is the same as extra weight as far as the lift provider ( the wing) is concerned. You pull "G" and the wing must work harder. That means more speed or more AoA.

 

If we put out an edict that we shouldn't exceed 30 degrees of bank more people will skid the plane around the turn. if they see the need to tighten the turn. If you don't know how important having balanced flight (skid ball in centre) is at high angles of attack you should not be allowed in an aeroplane that is off the ground.

 

An AH does what a visual out the window to the front does. Allows you to easily place the plane in a particular attitude (pitch and roll) It's a help if you go into cloud but it won't save you if you don't do a few other things very right.

 

Basic panel needs ONE gyro instrument and it's a rate turn needle. NO pilot can fly in IMC without it. Basic panel is part of IMC training. Nev