Turning opinions etc

[SDQDI]

So in a car the steering wheel doesn't turn it, it is the angle of attack that the wheels have nothing to do with the steering wheel?!

 

That last post that is aimed at DJ is downright offensive and doesn't help add any legitimacy to anything you say.

 

 

[APenNameAndThatA]

So in a car the steering wheel doesn't turn it, it is the angle of attack that the wheels have nothing to do with the steering wheel?!

That last post that is aimed at DJ is downright offensive and doesn't help add any legitimacy to anything you say.

I'll type this slowly so that you can keep up.

 

In an airplane, the control column controls it, just as the steering wheel controls a car. If you want, you can say that the control column controls the airplane and that the wheel controls a car. It would be reasonable to say that it is the angle of attack of the wheels that turns the car.

 

Regarding the offensive comment. As I made clear in my post: advising people to bank at 60 degrees turning onto final is a worse thing to do that calling someone a dribbler. Saying that it okay to bank at 60 degrees is dangerously stupid, should anyone be stupid enough to take the advice. Calling someone a dribbler is not dangerous, it is being unnecessarily polite when said about someone who says that it is okay to bank at 60 degrees turning onto final.

 

Think about it, please. Calling someone a dribbler is bad, but saying that it is okay bank at 60 degrees is far worse. You failed to grasp that. You criticised me. You didn't criticise dribbles.

 

That's the quality of discussion by the great and good of this forum: bank at 60 degrees turning onto final.

 

If you're dribbling on your crotch, give yourself a pat on the back. Your turns are co-ordinated. Well done, you.

 

 

[Keith Page]

Every one is on control surfaces and the reactions, I think power could be added into the equations.

 

With power there is a complete change of dynamics, you know the old saying, "If you develop enough power a brick will fly".

 

KP

 

 

[APenNameAndThatA]

Every one is on control surfaces and the reactions, I think power could be added into the equations.With power there is a complete change of dynamics, you know the old saying, "If you develop enough power a brick will fly".

KP

True, that. If you add power, and the angle of attack remains the same (and the relationship between the centre of drag and the centre of thrust does not mess stuff up) the lift will increase and the airplane will turn. No elevator input required.

 

 

[djpacro]

..... There was an excellent reason why he made that comment in that particular context - the adverse outcome when people limit bank angle but then find themselves in a situation where increased bank angle is a good decision but take alternative action with an unfortunate outcome. I will say that it is good to avoid bank angles of more than 60 deg at that point in the circuit at towered airports because CASA would regard it as aerobatics......

.... repeated for the benefit of anyone who may think that I made a different comment about banking at 60 deg ...Much better to discuss this stuff over a bottle of red in the hangar at the end of the flying day ... Narromine in October ...

 

 

[planesmaker]

a 60' bank turn does not necessarily increase the stall speed. Flying parachutists, descent was made at 80' bank 60 kts full flap cruise power, did not once hear the stall warning! The final turn is a descending turn.

 

 

[M61A1]

.... repeated for the benefit of anyone who may think that I made a different comment about banking at 60 deg ...Much better to discuss this stuff over a bottle of red in the hangar at the end of the flying day ... Narromine in October ...

Or you could just bang your head repeatedly against a brick wall, for much the same effect......

 

 

[SDQDI]

I'll type this slowly so that you can keep up.In an airplane, the control column controls it, just as the steering wheel controls a car. If you want, you can say that the control column controls the airplane and that the wheel controls a car. It would be reasonable to say that it is the angle of attack of the wheels that turns the car.

 

Regarding the offensive comment. As I made clear in my post: advising people to bank at 60 degrees turning onto final is a worse thing to do that calling someone a dribbler. Saying that it okay to bank at 60 degrees is dangerously stupid, should anyone be stupid enough to take the advice. Calling someone a dribbler is not dangerous, it is being unnecessarily polite when said about someone who says that it is okay to bank at 60 degrees turning onto final.

 

Think about it, please. Calling someone a dribbler is bad, but saying that it is okay bank at 60 degrees is far worse. You failed to grasp that. You criticised me. You didn't criticise dribbles.

 

That's the quality of discussion by the great and good of this forum: bank at 60 degrees turning onto final.

 

If you're dribbling on your crotch, give yourself a pat on the back. Your turns are co-ordinated. Well done, you.

So who said it was good practice to use 60 degree aob in the circuit?

 

Personally I think it would be silly and unnescesary to do it frequently however I do think it is something we should all be capable of.

 

It would be a pity to try it (or more likely avoid it by skidding around sharper!) for the first time on your first engine out trying to line up away from that clump of trees.

 

Anyway that is just my take on it and I am by no means an expert!!!!!!!!!!!!! I fly for fun and don't even have 500 hrs up yet so my advice should be taken with a huge grain of salt. I do like to consider what those with knowledge of a subject have to say though.

 

 

[Yuri Gagarin]

I'll type this slowly so that you can keep up.

Have you ever considered having flying lessons, it might all make sense once you know how to fly.

 

 

[frank marriott]

Perhaps some people considering the increased stall speed at 60° should look closer at that statement - the stall speed increases at the square root of the wing loading - not the angle of bank.

 

At 60° STRAIGHT & LEVEL the wing loading is 2 so the stall speed increases by 1.414 but not in a decending turn where the wing loading is reduced.

 

One can then go into all depths of maths if it they like but in all realism not helpful to actually flying the aeroplane.

 

Handy to understand generally but not relevant to actually flying - you do not have time to hit the pause button and do involved calculations.

 

IMO too detailed to be considered for the average RAA pilot.

 

 

[Geoff13]

Some of the best theoretical people I have met were terrible tradesman.

 

I am not saying theory isn't important, but practical experience is importenter.

 

 

[djpacro]

showing a degree, not 60 however, of importenter

[DWF]

This thread appears to have taken a 60 degree AoB turn and careered headlong off topic and probably should be shut down as it seems to have degenerated into match of trolls feeding trolls!

 

 

[APenNameAndThatA]

This thread appears to have taken a 60 degree AoB turn and careered headlong off topic and probably should be shut down as it seems to have degenerated into match of trolls feeding trolls!

Let me get this straight: me saying that banking at 60 degrees when turning from base to final is not okay is trolling?

 

Someone pointing out that a (reasonably) steeply descending turn with a 60 degree bank will not increase stall speed, because the aircraft is descending, is trolling?

 

If someone says that banking 60 degrees turning from base to final is okay, then they deserve to be slapped around a bit. The only downside is that it might save their life.

 

Perhaps some people considering the increased stall speed at 60° should look closer at that statement - the stall speed increases at the square root of the wing loading - not the angle of bank.At 60° STRAIGHT & LEVEL the wing loading is 2 so the stall speed increases by 1.414 but not in a decending turn where the wing loading is reduced.

One can then go into all depths of maths if it they like but in all realism not helpful to actually flying the aeroplane.

 

Handy to understand generally but not relevant to actually flying - you do not have time to hit the pause button and do involved calculations.

 

IMO too detailed to be considered for the average RAA pilot.

Well, it's actually not too detailed for the average RAA pilot, because some of the (very average) RAA pilots here think that banking 60 degrees on final is okay. I'm pretty sure that a normally flown circuit will not have a steep enough descent to compensate for the 60 degree bank. What could be more important that having that thrashed out?

 

 

[M61A1]

[Phil Perry]

Just looked up what "attitude flying is". Of course I was introduced to attitude flying. That's how I flew. But attitude flying will not tell you what 15 degrees is. And it will not tell you "Oh, I overbanked by five degrees". If you have an AH, you will be able to do better better attitude flying because you will see yourself overbank, look down and see how far you overbanked.How is someone doing pure attitude flying to know if they are flying base turn at 15 degrees or 20 degrees? and if they overbank, how are they to know if it was by 5 degrees or 10 degrees? It's like I said the first time: the issue is precision.

 

20 + 10 = 30. A 30 degree bank will increase the G-forces, and stall speed, a non-trivial amount. Stalls turning onto final are very rare. But they are a very common cause of fatal accidents.

 

I am still not an expert on attitude flying, so I am still all ears.

Sir, you have admitted to having fairly low experience of flying. I have to take issue with your last but one statement highlighted hereinabove. I would suggest to you that a Base - to - Final turn stall IS THE REASON for the very 'Common Cause' of fatal accidents. I have personally witnessed four of these in pursuit of my flying hobby. One was only a few months ago

 

Usual reason, ie, Holding Off Bank with inside, or 'bottom' rudder applied, failing to note your actual AIRSPEED and falling for the rudder 'Secondary Effect' trap. . ( ie 'Into Spin' controls ) and stalling the inner wing. This happens to all sorts of light, three axis aircraft and as far as I am aware is far and away the MOST Common Killer of all the disparate types of flight accident; which continue to occur with frightening regularity. An Inner wing stall on the final turn is normally at around 500 feet or less, which is why there is very little chance of recovery with the height remaining, unless the pilot instantly recognizes the condition and takes action within a split second. . ..most don't and then are removed from the gene pool.

 

I fail to see how having an AI on the panel would have saved any of the pilots who have met their demise in that scenario.

 

I will, of course defer and accept correction if my experiences in this regard have been misinterpreted.

 

No offence intended BTW.

 

Phil.

 

 

[Phil Perry]

If you are flying an Instrument approach or even a Night VMC approach to a runway using standard circuit procedure, then the AI, along with other instruments would indeed be a very important part of your scan. . . .I still don't know what your fixation with Fixed angles of bank is attempting to establish. . .? A 15 degree AOB is recommended for Two Minute timed turns in IMC, and also for students of Blind Flying so that they do not easily lose control of the machine in IMC. . . When I was flying in Australia in 1971,. . my instructor said that 30 degrees AOB was the maximum AOB to use in a circuit.. . . .this was at Casey Airfield, Berwick Vic. using ancient C-150s. . . . He seemed to know what he was talking about. . . .

 

Airliner crews also try to keep the bank angles small, where any steeper bank angles might upset the Pax. I could tell you just by looking out of the front window what my angle of bank was,. . at least to within 3 or 4 degrees. . . But I have been flying aeroplanes for over forty years. . .why are you insisting on reliance to ONE clock / gauge ? . . this takes / distracts your attention away from the outside view. . . . I'm trying to stay on topic here, which is difficult I realise, AS one thing almost always leads to another. . .ad infinitum. ( I think that's Eytie. . .)

 

Anyway,. . .when you've had a couple of hundred hours of flying,. . like wot some of us have. . and not gotten yourself dedded. . . (!) come back and have the same argument and tell us what you have learned.. . .we promise not to take the Pi$$. . . . Oh,. . .and do what DJA suggested. . .get some aerobatic training. . . .you might wee yourself, but it's good learnin'

 

I mean this in the nicest possible way Sir.. . .

 

I hope that you are not a troll. . .just here to wynde up us old greying eagle fartes who are only here to help . . . .