Turning opinions etc

[APenNameAndThatA]

Doing a steep or skidding turn is in no way a prerequisite for stalling and crashing on a turn to base or final.

Straw man. Try again.

 

 

[APenNameAndThatA]

Oh and if you do not believe me start chatting Cessna drivers. They are rebound through the lands as people who have no idea about rudder ... because there so so little need for it on them ... they just turn the wheel and pull back to turn corners.

That does not address my comments. I never said that it was the rudder that turned the aircraft, did I?

 

 

[frank marriott]

******fixed*******

 

 

[jetjr]

Do you realise you're arguing with pilots with tens of thousands of hours in aircraft of all types, flight instructors and other well experienced people?

 

A key skill of a safe pilot is to keep learning.

 

 

[APenNameAndThatA]

Do you realise you're arguing with pilots with tens of thousands of hours in aircraft of all types, flight instructors and other well experienced people?A key skill of a safe pilot is to keep learning.

Well, what's happening is that they are saying, as you are saying, 'we have more experience than you therefore we're right and you're wrong.' Appealing to authority is a logical fallacy. And the clever, experienced people that I am arguing with are not addressing the points that I am making. I am happy to learn from these esperienced people.

 

I do realise that I am arguing with people who have more experience than me. That's turned out to be the fun bit: red in the face and have not laid a glove on me.

 

How do you know your level of bank with no AH: "experience!".

 

"How much does turning with a 30 degree bank angle increase stall speed?!"

 

As for the key to being a skilled pilot is continuing to learn: telling me that I am wrong without addressing my points does not teach me anything. As one of the ancient Greeks said, you can't teach a man something he thinks he already knows. Also, if they are not learning from me, then they are guilty of what you are accusing me of. (Cue heads turning purple and exploding). At the very least, they could actally address the points I am making.

 

The post that I made that got people bent out of shape was when I said that I just looked up attitude flying but how do you turn with a precise bank angle with no AH. I got no answer. But some experienced doofus did suggest that turning with a 30 degree bank angle did not increase stall speed. And another experienced person suggested that people should not restrict their bank angle turning onto final.

 

Have you all got 10000 hours or 10 hours 1000 times? 30 degree bank angle turn does not increase stall speed, WTF?

 

 

[M61A1]

Assuming you aren't trolling....

 

DJP's post about elevators doing the turning is correct.

 

Think about it.....you add bank and all you will do is slip, (no increase in stall speed) add up elevator and you are now turning, and only now will you have increased your load factor (G), increasing you stall speed, you keep the aircraft balanced in the turn with rudder. The elevator controls the angle of attack of the wing.

 

Once your instructor has shown you what 30 degrees looks like, you should be able to replicate that reasonably accurately, if you can't, I suspect you might have some difficulty in others areas of your training also.

 

It really doesn't matter much whether you bank 25 or 35 degrees, as long as you are flying balanced and you adequate control of your airspeed.

 

 

[kasper]

Well, what's happening is that they are saying, as you are saying, 'we have more experience than you therefore we're right and you're wrong.' Appealing to authority is a logical fallacy. And the clever, experienced people that I am arguing with are not addressing the points that I am making. I am happy to learn from these esperienced people.I do realise that I am arguing with people who have more experience than me. That's turned out to be the fun bit: red in the face and have not laid a glove on me.

 

How do you know your level of bank with no AH: "experience!".

 

"How much does turning with a 30 degree bank angle increase stall speed?!"

 

As for the key to being a skilled pilot is continuing to learn: telling me that I am wrong without addressing my points does not teach me anything. As one of the ancient Greeks said, you can't teach a man something he thinks he already knows. Also, if they are not learning from me, then they are guilty of what you are accusing me of. (Cue heads turning purple and exploding). At the very least, they could actally address the points I am making.

 

The post that I made that got people bent out of shape was when I said that I just looked up attitude flying but how do you turn with a precise bank angle with no AH. I got no answer. But some experienced doofus did suggest that turning with a 30 degree bank angle did not increase stall speed. And another experienced person suggested that people should not restrict their bank angle turning onto final.

 

Have you all got 10000 hours or 10 hours 1000 times? 30 degree bank angle turn does not increase stall speed, WTF?

Ok how to set up a constant turn without a AH

You will be using the following instruments

 

ASI

 

Compass

 

Altimeter

 

And IF you are in a 3 axis you'll use the balance ball. If in two axis or weightshift you'll not because they are not applicable

 

Assuming you are straight and level at entry you move into the three instrument scan. Alt static heading constant and asi constant. Assume also you're in cruise so speed is not close to stall.

 

Now be bloody strict with your eyes and start disbelieving your gut and inner ear. They lie to you without visual confirmation when you are turning ... in the turn they settle to normal and start telling you that bank = level and you WILLwant to add bank.

 

Ok straight n level entry at constant speed not near stall.

 

Use aileron to roll wings to what you think will be a shallow bank and centralise. And use elevator to keep airspeed constant ie you will need to pull back. Watch the compass start to turn. It's the rate of compass turning that you are aiming to keep constant.

 

Keep your scan of the three instruments going - DO NOT fix on one because you will rapidly lose it.

 

If you practice this with an instructor without a hood for a session or two you may be surprised how accurate you can become at learning the rate of compass turn that is a rate 1 turn.

 

Then the instructor will put you under a hood and then you'll start feeling the lies of your ears and body.

 

Now just remember. All of this needs to be learned. Practiced. And maintained as a skill. Because the time to try it for the first time is never when you inadvertently enter imc

 

And never forget steam instruments have lag so things going wrong are delayed in display to you on the three instruments scan.

 

Now please go and have a lesson or two to get this all put into your flying skill set and leave this thread to drift back to its title.

 

 

[djpacro]

Well, what's happening is that they are saying, as you are saying, 'we have more experience than you therefore we're right and you're wrong.' Appealing to authority is a logical fallacy.

I am saying take a look at the controls used for turning from the point of view that some of us have been stating ... to focus on elevator as that controls angle of attack to promote greater awareness of the situation in a turn.

 

Appealing to authority is a logical fallacy.

I quoted one of the highly respected FAA Manuals simply because it is the USA industry-developed standard for pilot theory.

 

And the .... people that I am arguing with are not addressing the points that I am making. I am happy to learn from these esperienced people.

Just for once, addressing the points that you make. Happy for you to visit and learn.

 

I do realise that I am arguing with people who have more experience than me. That's turned out to be the fun bit: red in the face and have not laid a glove on me.How do you know your level of bank with no AH: "experience!".

 

"How much does turning with a 30 degree bank angle increase stall speed?!"

I don't think anyone has started arguing (yet). Others have explained why they chose to answer about bank angle the way they did. I'm quite sure there was a particular reason for picking on the 30 degree bank stall speed increase.

 

As for the key to being a skilled pilot is continuing to learn: telling me that I am wrong without addressing my points does not teach me anything. As one of the ancient Greeks said, you can't teach a man something he thinks he already knows. Also, if they are not learning from me, then they are guilty of what you are accusing me of. (Cue heads turning purple and exploding). At the very least, they could actally address the points I am making.

Miserable weather here in Melbourne so on my PC with some spare time so here I am but I don't have that much time.

 

The post that I made that got people bent out of shape was when I said that I just looked up attitude flying but how do you turn with a precise bank angle with no AH. I got no answer. But some experienced doofus did suggest that turning with a 30 degree bank angle did not increase stall speed.

"a stupid, incompetent, or foolish person" - I really don't think he is and I think that is a misquote about not increasing stall speed (I'm not going back to check it anyway) but he did have a good reason for the comment. I think there was also a clear enough answer on how to turn with a precise bank angle with no AH.

 

And another experienced person suggested that people should not restrict their bank angle turning onto final.

There was an excellent reason why he made that comment in that particular context - the adverse outcome when people limit bank angle but then find themselves in a situation where increased bank angle is a good decision but take alternative action with an unfortunate outcome. I will say that it is good to avoid bank angles of more than 60 deg at that point in the circuit at towered airports because CASA would regard it as aerobatics.

 

Have you all got 10000 hours or 10 hours 1000 times? 30 degree bank angle turn does not increase stall speed, WTF?

Just googled the meaning of that and decided that it does not warrant a response from me.

[aro]

I quoted one of the highly respected FAA Manuals simply because it is the USA industry-developed standard for pilot theory.

Unfortunately, just because it comes from the FAA doesn't mean it is right. Someone seems to have decided that if it isn't the rudder then obviously it must be the elevator but that's not correct.

 

Try a 15 degree banked turn and see how much control over the rate of turn you have with the elevator (assuming you have enough power to keep a constant speed).

 

Put elevator to neutral and see if it turns while banked.

Single channel (rudder only) RC shows aircraft turn just fine without an elevator control. You need to increase the load factor to account for the bank - which means an increase in speed, either from a descent or increased power. That isn't always desirable or possible, so using the elevator we can increase the AOA to change the load factor.

 

The (coordinated) turn is always from angling the lift vector to one side. In a steep turn it *looks* like the elevators "pull you around the turn" but it isn't actually true.

 

 

[M61A1]

Unfortunately, just because it comes from the FAA doesn't mean it is right. Someone seems to have decided that if it isn't the rudder then obviously it must be the elevator but that's not correct.Try a 15 degree banked turn and see how much control over the rate of turn you have with the elevator (assuming you have enough power to keep a constant speed).

 

Single channel (rudder only) RC shows aircraft turn just fine without an elevator control. You need to increase the load factor to account for the bank - which means an increase in speed, either from a descent or increased power. That isn't always desirable or possible, so using the elevator we can increase the AOA to change the load factor.

 

The (coordinated) turn is always from angling the lift vector to one side. In a steep turn it *looks* like the elevators "pull you around the turn" but it isn't actually true.

Except that rudder only rc aircraft usually have pitch control using a thrust line that increases AoA with power. Also the the turn isn't balanced, and I dare you to old the rudder in for any period of time and see what happens.

 

 

[aro]

Except that rudder only rc aircraft usually have pitch control using a thrust line that increases AoA with power.

That's not required to turn, e.g. you can have a single channel glider.

 

Also the the turn isn't balanced, and I dare you to old the rudder in for any period of time and see what happens.

The turn isn't balanced while you are applying rudder but when you neutralise it it should be quite well balanced due to the large amount of dihedral required to get the roll control from the rudder. The rudder initiates and ends the turn, but while the aircraft is banked it will continue to turn without rudder or elevator input.

 

 

[facthunter]

Comparisons with single channel RC models are probably not helpful in this instance. Nev

 

 

[aro]

They illustrate that the elevator does not turn the aircraft, and is not required to turn the aircraft. Model or full size, the aerodynamics are the same.

 

The elevator does allow us to turn without losing height or adding power, which is usually desirable.

 

 

[facthunter]

We will have to disagree on that one . There are too many differences. I'm not even going to elaborate as it will only add to the confusion, and there's enough about already. We must stick to basics. controls and further effect of controls of a conventional 3 axis aircraft. Nev

 

 

[aro]

We must stick to basics. controls and further effect of controls of a conventional 3 axis aircraft.

The problem is that the theory taught to pilots is simplified to the point of being wrong. It's OK for the intended purpose (flying an aircraft) but not so good as a basis for other theories e.g. how an aircraft really turns.

 

Other examples are Newton/Bernoulli and pitch vs. power for airspeed on final - the arguments arise because what pilots are taught is oversimplified.

 

 

[facthunter]

That's taken out of context, and therefore lacks immediate relevance, but dumbing down is alive and well. Understanding is the way knowledge is applied and learned with minimum confusion, rather than being remembered just because someone thinks you should to pass an exam. Nev

 

 

[poteroo]

After 137 posts - we are arguing about how to teach a level turn???

 

In respect of the thread title ' Shiny,New RAAus'.................

 

On my required info list is for RAAus management to detail exactly what RAAus does,(and the $ cost), to comply with CASA. Then I'd like to know what RAAus have to spend, over and above what CASA provide as a grant. I believe that we, (RAAus that is), should not be doing any extra work (for) CASA than we are paid for. I choke at the thought of doing CASA's work for them, at our cost! Do we believe that our new Board is looking at the RAAus workload,(on behalf of CASA), and is working toward having CASA pay a fair and reasonable fee for the service that RAAus provide?

 

 

[turboplanner]

You're throwing up the opportunity for another thousand posts there.

 

 

[Cal Air 63]

You're throwing up the opportunity for another thousand posts there.

Make it 2000, wanna make sure we get our money's worth

 

 

[Jim McDowall]

After 137 posts - we are arguing about how to teach a level turn???In respect of the thread title ' Shiny,New RAAus'.................

 

On my required info list is for RAAus management to detail exactly what RAAus does,(and the $ cost), to comply with CASA. Then I'd like to know what RAAus have to spend, over and above what CASA provide as a grant. I believe that we, (RAAus that is), should not be doing any extra work (for) CASA than we are paid for. I choke at the thought of doing CASA's work for them, at our cost! Do we believe that our new Board is looking at the RAAus workload,(on behalf of CASA), and is working toward having CASA pay a fair and reasonable fee for the service that RAAus provide?

No sign of the current CASA agreement on the website - is there one? If not, why is RAAus doing CASA's job?

 

 

[Keith Page]

No sign of the current CASA agreement on the website - is there one? If not, why is RAAus doing CASA's job?

Looks very much RAAus is looking for brownie points from CASA.

KP

 

 

[storchy neil]

Don't worry about that deed just do as the ones at the top say it will be right bull xxxxxx Neil

 

 

[turboplanner]

Part of Self Administration is that you assess your obligations against any existing rules/regulations/agreements.

 

If you are being asked to do something which is not within those boundaries you need to point that out.

 

If you don't, then you'll get a trickle on non-conforming requirements, and if you still don't it will become a flood to the point where technically you will no longer be self administering, but following these non-conforming orders and paying for it.

 

This particularly applies in the case of a Semi-Autonomous government instrument such as CASA.

 

An additional negative when you are dealing with these bodies is that they can make operating decisions without the protection of the Parliament (which most of you despise, so there's some rough justice there), and its access to representation through the members and ministers, and its transparency within the decision making process.

 

As a result of this, some of those decisions may be snap decisions which, if you don't fight them will bite you.

 

Sound familiar?

 

 

[APenNameAndThatA]

Ok how to set up a constant turn without a AHYou will be using the following instruments

 

ASI

 

Compass

 

Altimeter

 

And IF you are in a 3 axis you'll use the balance ball. If in two axis or weightshift you'll not because they are not applicable

 

Assuming you are straight and level at entry you move into the three instrument scan. Alt static heading constant and asi constant. Assume also you're in cruise so speed is not close to stall.

 

Now be bloody strict with your eyes and start disbelieving your gut and inner ear. They lie to you without visual confirmation when you are turning ... in the turn they settle to normal and start telling you that bank = level and you WILLwant to add bank.

 

Ok straight n level entry at constant speed not near stall.

 

Use aileron to roll wings to what you think will be a shallow bank and centralise. And use elevator to keep airspeed constant ie you will need to pull back. Watch the compass start to turn. It's the rate of compass turning that you are aiming to keep constant.

 

Keep your scan of the three instruments going - DO NOT fix on one because you will rapidly lose it.

 

If you practice this with an instructor without a hood for a session or two you may be surprised how accurate you can become at learning the rate of compass turn that is a rate 1 turn.

 

Then the instructor will put you under a hood and then you'll start feeling the lies of your ears and body.

 

Now just remember. All of this needs to be learned. Practiced. And maintained as a skill. Because the time to try it for the first time is never when you inadvertently enter imc

 

And never forget steam instruments have lag so things going wrong are delayed in display to you on the three instruments scan.

 

Now please go and have a lesson or two to get this all put into your flying skill set and leave this thread to drift back to its title.

Okay, thanks for all that typing. You forgot to mention something: how you can tell that you have a 30 degree bank angle without an AH. Also, if you wanted this thread to drift back to its title, you should have shut up, shouldn't you?

 

 

[APenNameAndThatA]

I am saying take a look at the controls used for turning from the point of view that some of us have been stating ... to focus on elevator as that controls angle of attack to promote greater awareness of the situation in a turn.I quoted one of the highly respected FAA Manuals simply because it is the USA industry-developed standard for pilot theory.

 

Just for once, addressing the points that you make. Happy for you to visit and learn.

 

I don't think anyone has started arguing (yet). Others have explained why they chose to answer about bank angle the way they did. I'm quite sure there was a particular reason for picking on the 30 degree bank stall speed increase.

 

Miserable weather here in Melbourne so on my PC with some spare time so here I am but I don't have that much time.

 

"a stupid, incompetent, or foolish person" - I really don't think he is and I think that is a misquote about not increasing stall speed (I'm not going back to check it anyway) but he did have a good reason for the comment. I think there was also a clear enough answer on how to turn with a precise bank angle with no AH.

 

There was an excellent reason why he made that comment in that particular context - the adverse outcome when people limit bank angle but then find themselves in a situation where increased bank angle is a good decision but take alternative action with an unfortunate outcome. I will say that it is good to avoid bank angles of more than 60 deg at that point in the circuit at towered airports because CASA would regard it as aerobatics.

 

Just googled the meaning of that and decided that it does not warrant a response from me.

You just said in public that turning onto final, you should not bank more than 60 degrees. LOL. From memory, banking at 60 degrees increases your stall speed by 41%. Also, from memory, on final, in light aircraft (not LSA's) you should fly at 30% greater than the stall speed. Also, 40% eats up a fair bit of the 75% that LSA's use. If you need 60 degree bank angle turning onto final, you need to go round.

 

About the appeal to authority, I meant the comments about how experienced people posting here are, not about using the FAA book.

 

About the elevators turning the airplane...

 

0. Rudder and aileron.

 

1. The pilot pulls back on the stick which move the control cables.

 

2. The control cables move the elevator.

 

3. The elevator moves the fuselage.

 

4. The fuselage increases the wing angle of attack.

 

5. The wing pushes the aircraft through the turn.

 

In my view, it is illogical to chose 2 and 3 in the sequence of events. They are intermediates.

 

NO ONE has addressed my point that you could bank an aircraft and use the flaps to increase AoA.

 

NO ONE has addressed my point that the elevators cannot be what is turning the aircraft because they are actually pushing in the OPPOSITE direction to the turn.

 

I suspect that some people say that it is the elevator that turns the aircraft because that is the bit of the aircraft that the pilot directly changes. My point is: so what? It is the change in the angle of the wing that actually turns the aircraft. That is what moves. It is silly to suppose that just because something comes under the DIRECT control of the pilot that it is that that alters the course of the aircraft. It's like supposing that the sun revolves around the earth because man is the centre of the universe.

 

The funny bit about this is that people posting here have said that it is the elevator that turn the aircraft... and then go on to say that the elevator increases the angle of attack of the wing.

 

If someone wanted to say that the elevator was the last control input that turned the aircraft in a level turn, then that would make sense. If you only had one control to turn an aircraft with, you could turn it with the rudder, and you could turn it with ailerons, but you couldn't turn it with the elevators. Turning involves inputs by all three surfaces: it is silly to choose the last one as THE one that turns the aircraft in a balanced turn - it is just one control in a sequence of events that started before the elevator input and ends after the elevator input.