Glider collision Bowenville

[fly_tornado]

Looks like a double fatality

 

One dead after air crash near Toowoomba

 

 

 

[onetrack]

That's pretty awful, and a very experienced glider pilot, too.

 

The copper has made a very definite statement, that he could confirm that "a mechanical error occurred". Yet, the Gliding Federation spokesperson says they don't know what happened?

 

I can recall a similar event at Narrogin, many many years ago, must have been the 1960's.

 

A farmer from Kulin that I knew, was the student - the instructor and student took off, but before they gained much height, the glider nosedived, killing the instructor, and severely injuring the farmer.

 

The farmer recovered from his injuries, but suffered long-term effects from them. I was told that the cause of the nosedive was never able to be determined.

 

 

[scre80]

RIP, very sad day

 

 

[shafs64]

RIP brother pilots

 

 

[flyerme]

Sad news Condolences to friends , family and students

 

 

[M61A1]

Daughter of fatal glider crash victim releases statement

 

FATAL GLIDER CRASH: Probe rules out mechanical error

 

Not quite accurate reporting that this is their first crash in 40 years of operating, there have been a couple.

 

 

[w3stie]

Sad news. My old gliding club.

 

 

[Mike Borgelt]

onetrack, I remember the Narrogin accident. The person killed was the 18 year old student pilot. I had met him once in a completely unrelated setting, maybe a less than a year before. Now this is what I was told by a very experienced glider pilot and maintainer who I have a LOT of time for (he was my spin instructor and I count him a friend).

 

The glider was a Kookaburra and it was an autotow launch. They got into the non maneuvering area well down the strip (a bad no-no) without enough runway ahead to land and stop. Tried to turn back and simply spun in. Instructor in the back survived but with shortened legs (I do remember his name). Student was killed outright. On investigation it was found that the instructor, despite having been around gliding for years, had a total of 15 hours of aeronautical experience. GFA was forced to clean up their instructor act.

 

Unfortunately it didn't help much as over the last 50 years there have been a lot of accidents with an instructor in the aircraft where the aircraft has been damaged/wrecked/injuries or deaths occur. In particular, see the accident at Ararat on April 12 , 2012. There have been plenty more.

 

Unfortunately last I looked, you can start training to be an instructor with 80 hours total time and be a level 1 instructor at 100 hours. I'd make that 250 hours and a training course the equivalent of a commercial licence (including written exams), at least a Class 2 medical (a student who can't land deserves what little protection that might be and it might eliminate some undesirable people) and an instructors course the equivalent of that in GA where training is about the safest activity in GA. It may be a good idea to examine whether initial flight training in gliders is a good idea. I don't believe it is on either safety or efficiency grounds.

 

In the latest accident, none of the above apply. The instructor was personally known to me and I would say one of the more thoughtful, knowledgeable and experienced glider pilots I know. Truly tragic in what looked to be nearly perfect conditions where there appear to have been no weather/ technical issues to prevent a completely safe outcome.

 

 

[kaz3g]

.....Unfortunately last I looked, you can start training to be an instructor with 80 hours total time and be a level 1 instructor at 100 hours. I'd make that 250 hours and a training course the equivalent of a commercial licence (including written exams), at least a Class 2 medical (a student who can't land deserves what little protection that might be and it might eliminate some undesirable people) and an instructors course the equivalent of that in GA where training is about the safest activity in GA. It may be a good idea to examine whether initial flight training in gliders is a good idea. I don't believe it is on either safety or efficiency grounds......

Hi Mike

 

I remember you were well known in gliding circles even back in the late 70's when I started gliding at Benalla and then what used to be the Euroa Soaring Centre.

 

I had very little power experience at that time but I enjoyed the gliding immensely and believe it did a lot for my skills and confidence. I mainly did winch launches so I got a lot of practice with take off and landing We also had an Rf 5 Fournier but, while a lot of fun in the air, this was actually pretty demanding in the landing phase because of the tendency to bounce on that big main wheel.

 

I ended up as an Asst Instructor and got a lot of pleasure out of introducing others to the sport. I drifted away when I moved closer to Melbourne and found it easier to access powered. Interested to know the safety grounds for your decision to not now support initial flight training in gliders.

 

Kaz

 

 

[onetrack]

Mike, thanks for the update on the Narrogin crash - I was never told the full details, and all the information came to me, about 7th-hand.

 

So, on the basis of what you describe, the farmer was the instructor, not the student?

 

That figures, he was a pretty rough-and-ready, headstrong individual, when it came to doing things, and making rash decisions would have been right up his alley.

 

Interestingly, as an aside, I found the following fascinating little booklet online - about Australian designed and made sailplanes - and that particular farmer features in it, on page 33 - crashing another glider!

 

https://scalesoaring.co.uk/VINTAGE/Books/David_Craddock/1931-1936_AustralianDesignedGliders_III.pdf

 

 

[Butch]

So, on the basis of what you describe, the farmer was the instructor, not the student?That figures, he was a pretty rough-and-ready, headstrong individual, when it came to doing things, and making rash decisions would have been right up his alley.

Steady ! I'm a farmer, and I am OCD about safety. Lets just say his personality was the reason he made some bad decisions.

 

 

 

[Mike Borgelt]

Mike, thanks for the update on the Narrogin crash - I was never told the full details, and all the information came to me, about 7th-hand.So, on the basis of what you describe, the farmer was the instructor, not the student?

That figures, he was a pretty rough-and-ready, headstrong individual, when it came to doing things, and making rash decisions would have been right up his alley.

 

Interestingly, as an aside, I found the following fascinating little booklet online - about Australian designed and made sailplanes - and that particular farmer features in it, on page 33 - crashing another glider!

 

https://scalesoaring.co.uk/VINTAGE/Books/David_Craddock/1931-1936_AustralianDesignedGliders_III.pdf

Thanks for the link to the booklet. Brings back memories. I knew some of those people and one (Arthur Farmer) took me for my first glider flight at Cunderdin at the GCWA Christmas camp at Cunderdin Dec 1957. I was nine years old.

 

Yup the farmer was the instructor. The student that died was 18 same as me at the time as I was about to start gliding..

 

Unfortunately this has happened again and again over the last 50 or so years. I can think of two female passengers seriously injured in flights with instructors in WA alone, one in Queensland (this century for Qld) , killed and the Ararat accident I mentioned. One bloke lost his head as the glider was flown into the fence at the ed of the runway on his first training flight some years ago.

 

Kaz, one of the hard things when starting flying is knowing whether the response is to your control inputs or caused by the atmosphere. It is far easier to do this early in the morning in a powered aircraft (or motorglider). Power also makes it easy to give the student enough time in the air in one flight to settle down, relax and get comfortable. I believe this causes far faster progress and when it comes to practicing takeoffs and landings, gliders are VERY inefficient.

 

There is also a thing called "primacy". Under stress you revert to what you were first taught. Initial training should be with very carefully trained, experienced instructors to make sure the student uses the right cues. I also worry whether GFA instructors are taught enough psychology about how people operate and learn to keep themselves and their students safe. The record would indicate NO. I know their knowledge of how the instruments in a glider work is abysmal. I can only conclude the rest of their knowledge is similar.

 

My wife did GFPT at Darling Downs Aero Club over 20 years ago. Having just done my PPL there I wasn't worried. I would then and now have been very unhappy if she had wanted to learn to fly gliders in Australia (or NZ which operates under the same system).

 

I have a young friend I see frequently who is learning to be an instructor on the ARH Tiger helicopter. We talk about his instructor training and I am impressed how thorough it is. I was also a long time ago on the ground staff of a professional flying training organisation, 2FTS at RAAF Pearce, for three years. I was met instructor and met man. Also got a fair bit of time in the MB326H for which Ithank the instructors there. Got to be able to do nice barrel rolls, loops, slow rolls and stall turns, even Derry turns and land the thing. I was told, if the instructor lapses into unconsciousness, don't eject, bring the aircraft back.

 

 

[bull]

Seems,to be a case of pilot incapacitation I was told today,,Instructor had a heart attack and fell on the stick,,,,,second hand info , so slap me if I,m wrong,,,sorry

 

 

[Mike Borgelt]

There's been an autopsy report released already?

 

How do you fall forward on the stick from a semi reclining position with a 4 point harness?

 

 

[nomadpete]

I am deeply saddened to hear of this accident. Sincerest condolences to family and friends of both. Don't speculate. This is likely to be another accident where the cause will be difficult to establish, as the instructor was very well known to be cautious, conservative, and very experienced. Both as power pilot (our tuggie), and glider pilot.

 

Also, my heart goes out to those present at the club when the accident occurred. A difficult time for everyone.

 

 

[bull]

There's been an autopsy report released already?How do you fall forward on the stick from a semi reclining position with a 4 point harness?

Not sure Mike,only what I was told ,maybe had landing trim on and let go of the stick,,sorry all, and my condolences to family and we best wait till the official report RIP

 

 

[Methusala]

I learned to fly with the Canberra Gliding Club. I agree with the points made by Mike Borgelt. Taking off and flying the aircraft was learned fairly quickly. Landings require so much judgement and experience that the student is challenged to absorb with (obviously) only one per flight. I never soloed in the Blanik but instead in the Pteradactyl ultralight that I was building at the time. I think that for most people, calm conditions in the early morning are best for initial training.

 

 

[Oscar]

Seems,to be a case of pilot incapacitation I was told today,,Instructor had a heart attack and fell on the stick,,,,,second hand info , so slap me if I,m wrong,,,sorry

You asked to be slapped - so be slapped. I suggest that you at least acquaint yourself with the ergonomics of a modern glider cockpit before making ignorant comments.

 

 

[Oscar]

Not sure Mike,only what I was told ,maybe had landing trim on and let go of the stick,,sorry all, and my condolences to family and we best wait till the official report RIP

More BS. In a glider, you establish FUST ( Flaps, Undercart, Speed, Trim) on downwind and you don't set them up for diving inverted into the ground. You modify your circuit height and speed by the use of the brakes and sideslipping.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Well let's get the slapping over with; he may not have fallen on the stick as some people insist, but do we at least know that he collapsed from a heart attack?

 

 

[winsor68]

Mike, thanks for the update on the Narrogin crash - I was never told the full details, and all the information came to me, about 7th-hand.So, on the basis of what you describe, the farmer was the instructor, not the student?

That figures, he was a pretty rough-and-ready, headstrong individual, when it came to doing things, and making rash decisions would have been right up his alley.

 

Interestingly, as an aside, I found the following fascinating little booklet online - about Australian designed and made sailplanes - and that particular farmer features in it, on page 33 - crashing another glider!

 

https://scalesoaring.co.uk/VINTAGE/Books/David_Craddock/1931-1936_AustralianDesignedGliders_III.pdf

It's a small world...Neil Hart was the founding member of the Leichhardt Soaring Club in Mount Isa...

 

"Reg Currell purchased a set of plans from Mrs Munn via Nial Hart. "

 

 

[M61A1]

Well let's get the slapping over with; he may not have fallen on the stick as some people insist, but do we at least know that he collapsed from a heart attack?

The local paper mentioned that they were looking at a possible medical event or two people on the controls at the same time. What their source is, I don't know. All just speculation really.

 

 

[bull]

You asked to be slapped - so be slapped. I suggest that you at least acquaint yourself with the ergonomics of a modern glider cockpit before making ignorant comments.

Ouch,,,,thanks Oscar,it,s good to know that the modern ergonomics of a modern glider will land the glider safely in the event I had an incapacitating event ,and those said controls cannot be interfered with by muscle spasms etc,,

 

 

[bull]

More BS. In a glider, you establish FUST ( Flaps, Undercart, Speed, Trim) on downwind and you don't set them up for diving inverted into the ground. You modify your circuit height and speed by the use of the brakes and sideslipping.

This aircraft did NOT dive into the ground INVERTED as you state,,,,the aircraft was seen to be on a stable approach on final at a height of 40 to 50 feet ,and then seen to nose over and dive STRAIGHT into the ground Oscar,this could easily be caused by an involuntary slight movement forward of the stick from muscle spasms etc or if the student was following on the stick and holding a little down pressure and suddenly the instructors stick released any imput, I don't know as I have already stated ,But you seem to know what happened Oscar , so could you please let us uninformed know so that we ignorant stupid PILOTS DONT MAKE THE SAME MISTAKES THANKS

 

 

[Mike Borgelt]

Here's a link to the student pilot who died.

 

'Much respected' volunteer killed in glider crash

 

Looks like a fit, active 60 year old to me.

 

Oscar is right the aircraft should be trimmed for approach speed, not to dive into the ground. I have a few hours in the ASK21's in California. You won't find a more gentle, well mannered, less twitchy glider. If nobody was flying I'd have expected it to do a hard landing and bounce from that position . The stick moves a long way fore and aft to get it to pitch forward suddenly like that takes little force but you need to move it a fair way.