Holy Moly, a new engine that will make an impact.

[bexrbetter]

Wow, just wow.

 

If this hits the market at the suggested target of $12,000 USD, who wouldn't want it. Take a Continental 0-200, re design everything using today's tech and sell it for half price.

 

130HP at 2700 rpm, 85 kgs.

 

EPI may be a new name to some of you, but they have been around for a long time, and I suspect I know who the aftermarket mob are, and they are long time in the business of aftermarket Continental parts.

 

NEW Lightweight Low-Cost 4-Cylinder Aircraft Engine

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Looks familiar...

 

 

[onetrack]

"Targeted" sale price, and "actual" sale price are quite often some distance apart. I struggle to see major cost-saving technology in this pretty basic, horizontally opposed design.

 

I can see the efficiency gains leading to increased power, but I can't see where they are getting their cost savings - unless they're subcontracting component manufacturing to China.

 

 

[geoffreywh]

well they didn't spend a whole lot on rocker cover design!

 

 

[bexrbetter]

"Targeted" sale price, and "actual" sale price are quite often some distance apart.

True, but they are past dyno stage so they must have some costing in hand, even at $15,000 it would be uber competitive on the market.

 

I struggle to see major cost-saving technology in this pretty basic, horizontally opposed design.

You answered your own question. Why should such simplicity be anything but cheap.

 

You guys have been shafted for so long you think it's normal.

 

unless they're subcontracting component manufacturing to China.

I doubt EPI and the company I suspect it is, Superior Air Parts :: Home ,would do anything but USA made.

 

well they didn't spend a whole lot on rocker cover design!

That's why the Continental is $25,000.

 

You blokes are hard to please.

 

 

[Super Cub]

Certainly hope they are successful. If their cost estimate is correct and the engine is reliable, They will likely become the No1 engine choice for Light aircraft.

 

I noticed they cut the high power video short. Not sure why. More development required.

 

I didn't see the fuel type mentioned in the article. Mogas (98?) or Avgas. I would guess Avgas.

 

Good luck to them.

 

I will be following their progress with keen interest.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

I didn't see the fuel type mentioned in the article. Mogas (98?) or Avgas. I would guess Avgas.

It has vertical valves and with the power gains I suspect a modern bathtub chamber shape and flat top piston (as I was suggesting Jabiru should do a few days ago), if that's the case then it should be able to run on most fuels.

 

 

[Super Cub]

It has vertical valves and with the power gains I suspect a modern bathtub chamber shape and flat top piston (as I was suggesting Jabiru should do a few days ago), if that's the case then it should be able to run on most fuels.

I just thought if it was a O-200, to get 126HP at 2700RPM / 4 CYL, it would be high compression requiring Avgas.

 

Even better if you could run it on Mogas 95 or 98, or Avgas.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Are any of the aircraft that the O-200 was OEM fitment on in production still?

 

 

[Downunder]

Can't be any good...... doesn't have Dunnydoor pistons......

 

 

 

[bexrbetter]

I just thought if it was a O-200, .

No, it's a scratch engine with some design roots taken from an 0-200.

 

to get 126HP at 2700RPM / 4 CYL, it would be high compression requiring Avgas.Even better if you could run it on Mogas 95 or 98, or Avgas.

I'm only surmising. If it is a modern combustion chamber design then it will have no problem running all those fuels, many people don't realise a Toyota Corolla, for just one example, runs higher than 10:1 and you can put 92 in it with out issue when you have a decent combustion chamber shape and fuel management.

 

 

[Super Cub]

No, it's a scratch engine with some design roots taken from an 0-200.QUOTE]

Yes, realise it's not a 0-200, but they did say it was a 200 Cu/Inch engine based on the 0-200

 

I didn't know modern car engines are equally high compression as the old Continentals or Lycos.

 

Big question is going to be price. Are they stating it will likely be half the price of a O-200 ($12500), just to spark everyone's interest, then when its finally released, the price escalates.

 

Realistically, If they want to get a huge footing into the market, they need to keep the price down, otherwise people generally stick with the known, trusted brands IMHO.

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

Viking is about 12k in the USA then there are a few things that you need to buy that are not included

 

 

[onetrack]

The problem with a "price target" is, it's a moving target. It's a number calculated on potential sales. However, the aircraft engine market is far from being a large market, even if they do manage to steal some Rotax sales.

 

As a result, if the "actual sales" falls to a level well below the calculated "projected sales", then the price will rise accordingly, as they no longer have the cost benefit of substantial production numbers.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Viking is about 12k in the USA then there are a few things that you need to buy that are not included

I had pretty much resigned myself to admitting that Viking, in spite of Jan, was the best deal out there.

 

This, if it lives up to the print, will top the tree.

 

I didn't know modern car engines are equally high compression as the old Continentals or Lycos.

.

Not sure what you mean there, Lycs and Contis, Franklins etc are all around 6.5 to 7.5:1, always have been.

 

Cars were pretty much at 8.5 to 9:1 for the last 50 years until recently and now they are usually a point higher, some even at 11:1 which was once strictly race car stuff on race fuel (or avgas).

 

The problem with a "price target" is, it's a moving target. It's a number calculated on potential sales. However, the aircraft engine market is far from being a large market, even if they do manage to steal some Rotax sales.As a result, if the "actual sales" falls to a level well below the calculated "projected sales", then the price will rise accordingly, as they no longer have the cost benefit of substantial production numbers.

If it is Superior or one of the other large mobs then they have the turnover with other stock to support it.

 

If it's a new startup and they don't have that support, then sure, it becomes a risk and is why many "One Trick Pony" businesses fail quickly.

 

 

[Super Cub]

Yes I have read a bit about the Viking. I liked the look of that, and the Suzuki.

 

Haven't heard much more about them. How many are being sold and installed in aircraft nowadays.

 

Perhaps not hearing much about them is good. Are they being used and we are not hearing much about them because they are reliable?.

 

Bex. Yes, I didn't know car engines were high compression and have been for so long. I guess I just assumed if they were as high compression as the old Cont and Lycos, they would require higher octane fuel than the 91 most car engines can run on now.

 

Depending on parts pricing though, this new engine sounds brilliant, as it takes us back to the 2700 rpm engine many of us are used to from GA, with no gearbox required.

 

I certainly like that.

 

Cheers

 

 

[geoffreywh]

Quote....."I guess I just assumed if they were as high compression as the old Cont and Lycos, they would require higher octane fuel than the 91 most car engines can run on now."..............................................

 

I'm not sure how the expression " as high as the old lycos ect;" arose. Those engines were/are as low a compression as any that were ever built since the thirties. and why they "need" 100LL is a bit of a mystery. Fear of detonation maybe? or fuel vaporisation fears? I run my 0-200 on 91 unleaded. (6.7-1 compression ratio) There are , modern motorcycles especially, that are up around 11-1 that run beautifully on 91unleaded. if you could get a Continental 0-200 with a head design that would run with such compression

 

then it would be a 160-200hp beast. At least................ although it may have to turn a bit faster than 2700rpm. .

 

 

[Super Cub]

Quote....."I guess I just assumed if they were as high compression as the old Cont and Lycos, they would require higher octane fuel than the 91 most car engines can run on now."..............................................I'm not sure how the expression " as high as the old lycos ect;" arose. Those engines were/are as low a compression as any that were ever built since the thirties. and why they "need" 100LL is a bit of a mystery. Fear of detonation maybe? or fuel vaporisation fears? I run my 0-200 on 91 unleaded. (6.7-1 compression ratio) There are , modern motorcycles especially, that are up around 11-1 that run beautifully on 91unleaded. if you could get a Continental 0-200 with a head design that would run with such compression

 

then it would be a 160-200hp beast. At least................ although it may have to turn a bit faster than 2700rpm. .

Interesting.

 

Is your 0-200 a Continental?

 

Did you do any modifications to it to run it on 91 Unleaded?.

 

I would have assumed it would risk detonation otherwise.

 

So from what I'm reading here (Conts and Lycom) are considered low compression engines. Yet many still run on Avgas rather than Mogas. Is that a manufacturers requirement. Why?

 

Are modifications required to run these engines on Mogas. If so, anyone know what mods are required?.

 

Cheers

 

 

[geoffreywh]

Yup, Continental ................No the engine is standard................At 6.7 to 1 , I don't believe there is any risk of detonation at all. ............... There is a factory SB that allows Cont. 0-200's , Lyc 320's ect. and similar engines to run unleaded gas. ... There can be vapourisation problems with Aviation engines. ( fuel vapourising in fuel lines, so pumps have difficulty. )... my engine is gravity fed so that does not arise. Plus Avgas does not "go off" as Unleaded can, although it takes a while, maybe 2 or 3 months in my experience. That being said, A very high performance motorcycle requires fresh gas to run. I found that a bike could be impossible to start after standing for more than a couple of weeks. I would have to drain the carbs, allow fresh fuel in and it would then always run. The gas in the tank took much longer to "go off"..Geoff

 

 

[Deskpilot]

At least 2 different engines being shown here guys. The 'first run' engine only has a single ignition set-up. The image of the engine alone has twin spark plugs holes per cylinder. Also, three types of valve covers shown. I had hoped to find that they were using electronic valves but not so, would make a huge difference to weight and performance. Before you comment, I'm basing that on the use of them in the Koeninsegg super-car engine.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

I would have assumed it would risk detonation otherwise.

So from what I'm reading here (Conts and Lycom) are considered low compression engines. Yet many still run on Avgas rather than Mogas. Is that a manufacturers requirement. Why?

 

Yup, Continental ................No the engine is standard................At 6.7 to 1 , I don't believe there is any risk of detonation at all. ...............

Because air cooled engines with large clearances, very large bores and very poor combustion chamber designs with long flame paths are at very high risk of detonation.

 

It's the price you pay for the simplicity and lightness of them, although many are at a loss why the basic hemi combustion chamber has never been updated. The hemi is legendary and once thought to be the bees knees but has proven actually a terrible design.

 

At least 2 different engines being shown here guys. The 'first run' engine only has a single ignition set-up. .

They are going through prototype stages, probably have a number of variants, quite common.

 

using electronic valves but not so, Before you comment, I'm basing that on the use of them in the Koeninsegg super-car engine.

Besides others, BMW spent years and massive amounts trying to get them working reliably and gave up.

 

It's ok for a boutique car manufacturer who make 10 cars a year to offer them to filthy rich clients who understand the risk.

 

 

[onetrack]

I'm still at a loss to understand how this crowd think they can design a new engine - using no new ideas or new principles - get it through the multiple costly hoops of the certification process - and then sell it for 20% less than the nearest competitor.

 

Unless they have found some magic, cheap method, of manufacturing/producing the myriad of components that go into making a regular IC engine, then I can't for the life of me, see where the cost savings are.

 

If they had eliminated a third of the components, or produced some design idea that lent itself to simple and robotic manufacture, then perhaps one could understand where cost savings were being found.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

I'm still at a loss to understand how this crowd think they can design a new engine - using no new ideas or new principles - get it through the multiple costly hoops of the certification process - and then sell it for 20% less than the nearest competitor.Unless they have found some magic, cheap method, of manufacturing/producing the myriad of components that go into making a regular IC engine, then I can't for the life of me, see where the cost savings are.

If they had eliminated a third of the components, or produced some design idea that lent itself to simple and robotic manufacture, then perhaps one could understand where cost savings were being found.

Who said it was going to be certified?

 

I have costed my engines by various methods, and in various countries. American aftermarket engine component supply is massive and very well priced. You can get anything made there and in minimal quantities, custom pistons, rods cranks, CNC cases etc.

 

Obviously I have costed engine parts in China as well, and also components for other manufacturers.

 

You're just not understanding just how much profit Lyc, Conti and the others are making. Read their catalogues carefully, notice in the pricing section there's a picture of a guy with a broomstick handle and a jar of Vaseline ....

 

You've been brainwashed for so long with ridiculous prices that it's no wonder you can't believe it.

 

You might answer that the USA has a big aftermarket market, but how many completely custom made, side valve motors based on the Ford Model A engine do you think Donovan sell?

 

Donovan Model D Block - Donovan Aluminum Engine Blocks

 

price list

 

http://www.donovanengines.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/ModelD.pdf

 

http://www.modelaparts.net/hiperf.html/donovansem.html

 

I'm surprised no one has grabbed these for aircraft use, 100HP @ 2800 rpm.

 

 

[onetrack]

Who said it was going to be certified?

I would have thought that if the manufacturer wanted to maximise sales of this new design - which is obviously entirely compatible and interchangeable with every Lyco-and-Conti-driven GA aircraft engine, they would get it certified, and punch a huge hole in Lyco and Conti replacement sales.

I haven't specifically noticed the broomstick handle and jar of Vaseline, in the Lyco and Conti advertising. I thought that was a pretty standard feature of anything for sale, that's aviation-related. Besides Caterpillar, of course.

 

If Lyco and Conti are rolling in 100% profit margins, as you assert, then one would assume that the two companies would be market darlings, and every investor would be dropping their piddly-return Commonwealth Bank shares, and go after Lyco and Conti shares. As it is, most stand-alone engine manufacturers seem to hover between bankruptcy, mergers, and minimalistic profits, as their fortunes change yearly.

 

Cummins is one of the few dedicated engine manufacturers that makes regular profits, and is stable, and not seeing their market, or market share diminish.

 

But it took around 25 years, and the backing of a constant major supporter - who just happened to be a bank owner, with a huge source of funds behind him, for Cummins to reach regular profitability.

 

Clessie Cummins would have gone bankrupt within 5 years, without the unwavering support and funding of Will Irwin and his bank.

 

Other engine manufacturers nearly always need complementary products, such as vehicle or equipment lines, or power products, to stay solvent.

 

The engine market is a fickle market, and new technical and engineering developments can soon wipe out manufacturers, unless they keep in front of the pack.

 

Personally, I reckon anyone who invests huge sums of money in developing new IC engines at present - such as Mazda - are running a very high risk of never seeing adequate ROI, as the IC engine is largely replaced by electric motive power.

 

AFAIC, anyone pouring money into new design IC engines at present, is the early 20th century equivalent of someone breeding bigger and faster horses to beat that useless, noisy, horse-scaring automobile, that needs a constant supply of scarce petrol!

 

Donovan Engineering Corp is a fairly-craftily run operation, not your run-of-the-mill, engine manufacturer. Producing racing engines and components is a pretty lucrative market.

 

Have you priced any current Donovan products? That price list you linked to, is 6 years old, and note that it's "plus", "plus", "plus" - and pistons don't even get a mention!

 

You have to supply your own variety of forged pistons, obviously - at great expense.

 

Note the range of Donovan products - and note that every product is tuned to the "big money", well-heeled market.

 

Donovan Engineering Corp.: engine, engines, engine blocks, ...-Openfos

 

People pay big money to get the maximum power to beat racing competitors - and funnily enough, racing destroys a lot of engines, meaning more engine sales! How about that?!

 

On top of that, the Donovan range of products is wide and all-encompassing, covering every competitive market that they can find, and even including a substantial range of accessories, drives, and promotional material.

 

Finally, as has been stated by more than one market observer, the combined population and market size, of the Continental U.S., Canada, and all of South America, is over 780M, making profitability a lot easier than in our population-deficient neck of the woods.

 

 

[rv6ejguy]

Some modern auto engines are running up to 14 to 1 CRs on what we term regular mogas these days. Motorcycles have been running over 12.5 to 1 on the same fuel for over a decade- all due to CFD combustion studies and dyno testing. The ACE Lycoming engines were also capable of running over 10 to 1 on mogas.