near beaudesert...2 deceased

[Kyle Communications]

Most BRS can save you from 200 to 400 ft..depending on your vertical speed of course

 

 

[shafs64]

Most BRS can save you from 200 to 400 ft..depending on your vertical speed of course

have you installed yours yet kyle.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

I doubt that a BRS would have saved anyone in the low level spins that we are witnessing.

Even just the chute coming out before it deploys creates drag, and even a 1 knot difference might just make a difference.

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

I was going to install it in the current XL that I am flying and then get another one in for Mabel (the rebuild) but its a major job. So have decided to fit this one into Mabel as I hope to have her flying mid to late next year. Fitting it during the rebuild is nice and easy so decided to do it like this. The XL is all fitted with straps etc but where I have mounted my AHRS and compass modules etc have made things more difficult that I realized but because Mabel is basically being turned into a kit again it will be much easier

 

 

[turboplanner]

It's interesting that close witness reports state that they only heard a "thump" on impact - there's no mention of engine noise, or an engine exhaust pitch change.It's difficult to see if the prop shows signs of rotation under power at impact - but I think I can see one blade partly-buried, level with the turf, that would appear to indicate it wasn't under power at impact.

Until the crash report comes out, one can only surmise that they were practising some type of emergency, and had engine failure at a critical moment, leading to an inability to recover, resulting in a flat spin.

 

What is puzzling is that they would appear to be initially at a relatively low height, to be unable to recover from the spin.

 

By all reports, the DA-40 is reliable enough, but to have two crash in a fortnight, and both in training situations, with instructors aboard, is of great concern.

When you get down lower than you should be, and have an oops moment, it doesn't take long at all to bite:

 

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Here's a convincing argument to the height concerns.

 

 

 

[MPB]

Been there twice, and I've laid turf from there, it's plenty supportive as the trucks well prove.

 

 

Spin training maybe? Plane failure at a guess as he was calling an emergency in whereas you would think he would be too busy fighting the plane to call it in if it was functioning normally?

 

However it seems to me to be yet another case where a BRS could be cited as being a posible aid to the situation. This was a highly trained pilot in a very well maintained aircraft, as was the glider a few weeks ago killing 2, as was the one that spun in a few weeks before that killing the student, so much for the anti-BRS protagonists who cite these 2 factors for not needing a BRS. I have never had a situation to need a seatbelt in my car, I ain't going to stop wearing it either, no one drives or flies expecting to have an accident.

By All reports the glider was on final 30 to 40 feet. A BRS would not be effective in that context.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

By All reports the glider was on final 30 to 40 feet. A BRS would not be effective in that context.

Wait, you joined in 2009 and decided to post for the very first time just to respond to my post?

 

#Feeling Important.

 

 

[BLA82]

Here's a convincing argument to the height concerns.

 

All that video shows is some muppet wrecking a perfectly good airplane.

 

 

[johnm]

it would be interesting to know circumstances of why the chute was pulled on the Sirius ?

 

prop seems to be spinning - was it a factory test ?

 

 

[bexrbetter]

it would be interesting to know circumstances of why the chute was pulled on the Sirius ?prop seems to be spinning - was it a factory test ?

His front gear had collapsed.

 

 

[Oscar]

FFS - with a functioning engine and an obvious clear and usable grass airstrip, you don't do a normal approach, hold off as long as possible after the round-out, cut the engine at the last moment and grease it on? Vs. pulling the BRS and smacking down?

 

This reminds me of the incident somewhere in NSW where a Ford Explorer ( IIRC) had its cruise control jam on a freeway, and the stupid driver had time to call up 000 and shout something on the lines of 'It's out of control, I can't stop it, help, help' instead of turning off the ignition...

 

Pulling the BRS in a situation that is easily controlled by a competent pilot, wrecks the aircraft because of stupidity. And as a result, all our insurance premiums go up, because Fwits throw away easily salvageable aircraft.

 

I don't consider this to be a 'critical' situation where competent piloting would have made the outcome anything more than 'interesting'. As a reason to install a BRS, it fails the 'pub test' of acknowledgement that it in ANY way was the saving factor of a serious incident. Competent pilots have landed heavies full of passengers with failed nosegear with little more than a trail of sparks.

 

 

[SSCBD]

FFS - with a functioning engine and an obvious clear and usable grass airstrip, you don't do a normal approach, hold off as long as possible after the round-out, cut the engine at the last moment and grease it on? Vs. pulling the BRS and smacking down?This reminds me of the incident somewhere in NSW where a Ford Explorer ( IIRC) had its cruise control jam on a freeway, and the stupid driver had time to call up 000 and shout something on the lines of 'It's out of control, I can't stop it, help, help' instead of turning off the ignition...

 

Pulling the BRS in a situation that is easily controlled by a competent pilot, wrecks the aircraft because of stupidity. And as a result, all our insurance premiums go up, because Fwits throw away easily salvageable aircraft.

 

I don't consider this to be a 'critical' situation where competent piloting would have made the outcome anything more than 'interesting'. As a reason to install a BRS, it fails the 'pub test' of acknowledgement that it in ANY way was the saving factor of a serious incident. Competent pilots have landed heavies full of passengers with failed nosegear with little more than a trail of sparks.

Oscar - Take a breath - lower your blood pressure for your next GA medical (I assume ) - I agree with you.

 

However I see a place in the market for pilots with BRS installed.

 

For example.

 

1. Structural failure in flight.

 

2. For those game boys flying over tiger country (single engine)

 

3. Night VFR (engine failure)

 

4. Medical Problem - saves pax anyway if onboard

 

5. Possibly anyone doing constant flying over water sectors

 

and for those who go into cloud or push the limits in IMC.

 

 

[Blueadventures]

FFS - with a functioning engine and an obvious clear and usable grass airstrip, you don't do a normal approach, hold off as long as possible after the round-out, cut the engine at the last moment and grease it on? Vs. pulling the BRS and smacking down?This reminds me of the incident somewhere in NSW where a Ford Explorer ( IIRC) had its cruise control jam on a freeway, and the stupid driver had time to call up 000 and shout something on the lines of 'It's out of control, I can't stop it, help, help' instead of turning off the ignition...

 

Pulling the BRS in a situation that is easily controlled by a competent pilot, wrecks the aircraft because of stupidity. And as a result, all our insurance premiums go up, because Fwits throw away easily salvageable aircraft.

 

I don't consider this to be a 'critical' situation where competent piloting would have made the outcome anything more than 'interesting'. As a reason to install a BRS, it fails the 'pub test' of acknowledgement that it in ANY way was the saving factor of a serious incident. Competent pilots have landed heavies full of passengers with failed nosegear with little more than a trail of sparks.

Had similar occur in a Ford when the kick down went to full roar, WOT; turned ignition to off but not all the way to lock steering. Rolled to a stop.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Competent pilots have landed heavies full of passengers with failed nosegear with little more than a trail of sparks.

Show me the pictures of a flipped "heavies" and the paralysis and deaths caused from them thanks.

 

light aircraft flipped - Google 検索

 

All that video shows is some muppet wrecking a perfectly good airplane.

The outcome would have likely been a writeoff either way.

 

Besides I was merely demonstrating the low height that a chute can be operated from.

 

 

[SDQDI]

Well personally I think we should never criticise anyone for pulling the red handle. How many times do we see the opposite, people killing themselves while leaving a perfectly good brs Unused.

 

Who cares if it writes the airframe off? If it removes even just a little risk then it is for the better.

 

In this example having no reliable nosewheel then certainly there would be an increased risk of overturning which was basically totally removed by deploying the brs.

 

Imo using a brs should be looked at in the same way a go around is, we shouldn't criticise just have the attitude better safe than sorry.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Well personally I think we should never criticise anyone for pulling the red handle.

You mean the leather helmet goggled, hot oil in the face while out on the wing adjusting the carb mid flight who fought off 12 Germans with a toothbrush during the war with one arm shot off He-Men who think you're s sissy if you fit a BRS first type?

 

Never come across them

 

 

[Oscar]

Oscar - Take a breath - lower your blood pressure for your next GA medical (I assume ) - I agree with you.However I see a place in the market for pilots with BRS installed.

For example.

 

1. Structural failure in flight.

 

2. For those game boys flying over tiger country (single engine)

 

3. Night VFR (engine failure)

 

4. Medical Problem - saves pax anyway if onboard

 

5. Possibly anyone doing constant flying over water sectors

 

and for those who go into cloud or push the limits in IMC.

OK, I appear to have given the wrong impression here.

 

I DO NOT deny the efficacy of a BRS to save lives ( if not really, save the aircraft -which I think is explicitly stated in the Cirrus brochures??) when things go irretrievably pear-shaped. If you lose a wing due to turbulence ( e.g. at least one Skyfox accident) - there is no other recourse than a BRS. If you are forced to land in a forest, it's probably preferable to be ab;e tpo pull the Big Red Handle - having positioned yourself into wind, and at a suitable height to achieve slow forward speed when hitting the tree canopy ( though some Jabirus have escaped serious occupant injury in that exact situation, due to their strong occupant capsule).

 

As it happens, I started to design a personal aircraft (as best I could, given my non aero-engineering background) relying on the advice of one of the most respected aero-engineers in this country. Amongst the issues that we debated, was the cost/benefit of either going for a Certificated engine or a BRS as 'security' for operation over hostile terrain. The BRS came out best option, both on weight and cost.

 

My concern about the more prevalent use of BRS, is that it appears to be becoming used as the first-resort option. This is, to me, akin to assuming that your air-bags will save you in your car crash and therefore you don't have to drive carefully or skillfully. Or even LEARN to drive carefully or skillfully. You can just buy the Volvo and go out on the road with not a care in the world for yourself, your passengers, or those around you. Perhaps I am showing my motorcyclist heritage here..( yes, I did have a 'Volvo Aware Rider' sticker on my motorcycles).

 

Just pulling the BRS in a manageable situation is an abrogation of responsibility for flying competently. And relying on the BRS to save your ar$e because you choose to voluntarily fly into a danger envelope when other options are available, is equally irresponsible.

 

 

[onetrack]

Re the Ford Explorer - that bloke just got lucky. Most Explorers just stop running without any reason, while you're driving down the freeway.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Just pulling the BRS in a manageable situation is an abrogation of responsibility for flying competently.

But that's an expectation that everyone should have that competence, that's Utopia, not planet Earth.

 

I have another answer, make a spin and stall resistant aircraft, I've seen where the threads go when that topic comes up, the He-Men take over and demand that you fly planes that kill you! In an Ercoupe thread recently elesewhere, one of those types jumped in a stated that if he had one he would modify it so it can be stalled, WTF?

 

Why would you take a perfectly safe stall resistant aircraft and make it dangerous for any reason other than to inflate your He-Manship*?

 

*Practitioners of aerobatics excused of course.

 

 

[tafisama]

T-tailed aircraft have that high spin tendency.I remember the Piper Tomahawk P138 had lots of graves years ago.Its unfortunate when things happen if you mess with one critical aspect the results are not that forgiving.

 

 

[Guest extralite]

Ref the red handle on the Cirrus...the training emphasizes that if in doubt, pull it. Dont try and land on a road, a paddock. The idea behind it being that according to the training, nobody has died in a Cirrus under the ballistic parachute. Plenty have died by not pulling it. They even show a video of crashed and burned Cirrus with the pin still in red handle. The plane is insured. Obviously it is in Cirrus best interest to have the lowest number of fatal accidents, hence the continual drills in using the shute. Anyway, condolences for the people and families affected by this this accident. Video of DA 40 spin recovery seem to show that it requires more than hands off. Idle. Forward stick. Opposite rudder. Not something that an instructor on a non spin approved aircraft would be practicing often. But who knows what the chain of events was and maybe there was nothing to be done.Hopefully the cause is found, very sad.

 

 

[Nico13]

Re the Ford Explorer - that bloke just got lucky. Most Explorers just stop running without any reason, while you're driving down the freeway.

Holdens were invented to keep the idiots out of Fords but this one slipped through the net

 

 

[Nico13]

There has been a lot of discussion over the years re T tails and flat spins and the blanketing effect over the tail in a flat spin. I recall many years back, too far back to recall the details but I was doing a bit of gliding and there was talk of a particular glider, T tailed, that had a problem if in a flat spin. I guess over those many years there have been many more than one would want to hear about and as was mentioned the video pointed out there was a bit more than a neutral stick and opposite rudder to get out of this one.

 

Again condolences to family and friends of this accident.

 

 

[gooneybird]

T-tailed aircraft have that high spin tendency.I remember the Piper Tomahawk P138 had lots of graves years ago.Its unfortunate when things happen if you mess with one critical aspect the results are not that forgiving.

Wasn't the nickname " trauma hawk"