near beaudesert...2 deceased

[shafs64]

yes when i started GA i was asked if i wanted to fly the 150 or the trauma. i took option 1

 

 

[GcmsGuru]

Little doubt that the accident involved a stall and likely a spin (re: angle of nose damage caused by very slight forward motion with nose down?) due to the apparent lack of forward motion scrape marks on the turf. Also possibly significant is the possibility that flaps may have been deployed: if so then possibly full flap stall practice with late recovery attempt? Flaps possibly deployed as a last resort to recover? "T" tail designs have problems with "deep stall" which at times makes stall recovery difficult or impossible. See this link... T-tail - Wikipedia

 

 

[GcmsGuru]

This link is of interest as well although recoveries were obviously accomplished.

 

 

The center of gravity at the time of a stall is vitally important in "T" tails and can prevent or delay recovery...

 

 

[Pominaus]

On the BRS debate, as far as I can tell the only argument against (other than cost) is poor training?

 

There was an interview with someone from Cirrus on a podcast.... I think it was aviatorcast, but could have been go flying Australia(?). There they said basically this: they installed BRS, and it didn't help, actually their fatality rate may have gone up, though I can't quite remember that specifically.

 

The point was that they then went to install BRS and give a training course, and the fatality rate collapsed. It's an entirely new technology for light planes, I don't see why you shouldn't be required to get an enorsement on it; it needn't be an expensive one after all, and might save your life. At some point I'm certain it'll just be part of the PPL anyway.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

they installed BRS, and it didn't help, actually their fatality rate may have gone up,

The only way that can be possible is if the BRS attracted less than confident pilots who were destined for an incident one day anyway, regardless of craft type. Note that other safety features of the Cirrus are attractive to that pilot type as well, not just the BRS alone, and that the actual incident rate of Cirrus has been quite high, likely for those "Safest Plane" reasons.

 

The real question is how many of those 'less than confident pilots' has the BRS saved. If I remember correctly the amount of chutes pulled is just under 100 for Cirrus.

 

http://airfactsjournal.com/2015/02/fatal-cirrus-crashes-way-thank-parachute/

 

Also there's plenty of crashes to be used as case samples where a BRS would have likely changed the result. In this incident the pilot had time to start radioing in an emergency, I have to make a presumption that he would have had a similar time frame to pull a red lever.

 

 

[Mike Borgelt]

IIRC the Cirrus at one time had a worse fatality rate than the Beechcraft Bonanza, a generally similar performing aircraft. I also read that the parachute was so they wouldn't have to go through the full spin testing regime for certification. Not that it won't recover, just they fitted the chute and got a waiver.

 

Then we had the guy in a Cirrus near Gilgandra a few years ago at 5000 feet who pulled the chute after an engine failure and judged he couldn't reach Gilgandra airport. According to the news story he'd reported falling oil pressure, passed up the chance to land at Gilgandra and pressed for Dubbo whereupon the engine failed some time later. Some nice pictures of the aftermath with the thing sitting, stuffed, in the middle of a mile square level paddock with the tree line in the distance. I've flown gliders in that area. If I had an engine failure in the BD-4 there I'd say "thank you, Lord, I'll take it from here". When you pull the chute you are out of control and just along for the ride.

 

The BD-4 design has never been formally spin tested either although one guy on the BD-4 newsgroup said he'd spun his hundreds of times. Jim Bede came up and said " I wouldn't do that, we never tested it".

 

From the DA-40 video it seems to recover from spins readily with standard recovery actions. With two on board I wouldn't expect the C of G to be aft. I have some more information about the recent Beaudesert accident but I can't put it up here.

 

Ballistic chutes are fine but I don't know why personal chutes aren't used more. My wife and I own one each which we got for gliding but we wear them in the BD-4 which has upward opening doors. Open door, undo seatbelt, roll off seat. When flying over remote unlandeable country (Gibb River road etc), survival packs on belt, the chutes have ELTs attached to the harness at all times. Chutes are steerable. Best to wear them and not need them than to need them and have them in the cupboard at home. We do get strange looks at airports sometimes.

 

Certainly if you are going to do aerobatics or spin training they would seem like a good idea. In the USA parachutes are required for aeros if there is more than one person in the aircraft. See the jettisonable doors on the C150 Aerobat.

 

 

[Guest extralite]

The gilgandra incident...heard that there may have been a bit more to that explains the perplexing series of events leading to the chute deployment as well as the deployment itself. but valid points.

 

 

[Raytol]

I had a friend of mine killed in an accident when the flaps were deployed and only one side was attached. Wound it into the ground in a spiral dive.

 

No chance to recognise the real cause. All the spin recovery won't fix the problem! Just sayin'.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

The gilgandra incident...heard that there may have been a bit more to that explains the perplexing series of events leading to the chute deployment as well as the deployment itself. but valid points.

They both walked away, that's the result that matters.

 

 

[Litespeed]

Re the Ford Explorer - that bloke just got lucky. Most Explorers just stop running without any reason, while you're driving down the freeway.

Ah classic

 

American engineering has many names "Ford Exploder" is just a memorable one.

 

And it is not the willingness to self flaggelate while driving on rough roads nor its ability to stop working when tuned to communist ABC radio.

 

It is because it is famous for actually self immolation- ie bursting in flames from a poor fuel tank and tyres that as oem would disintegrate cause a accident or puncture the tank and WOOF!

 

This is documented but no as common as the cruise control that has a mind of its own.

 

And yes, it amazes me that peeps can not recognise turning of the engine can save the day. One famous incident was a cop- hwy patrol in a toyota with family onboard, smart enough to call for help but too dumb to turn off the ignition. All onboard died.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

And yes, it amazes me that peeps can not recognise turning of the engine can save the day. One famous incident was a cop- hwy patrol in a toyota with family onboard, smart enough to call for help but too dumb to turn off the ignition. All onboard died.

No one is taught to press the start button down for 3 seconds sadly, bet most reading this don't know it applies to many electrical goods, your computer included.

 

Apparently no one he was talking to in emergency services knew either, it went for some distance before it all came to a nasty end.

 

 

[SDQDI]

No one is taught to press the start button down for 3 seconds sadly, bet most reading this don't know it applies to many electrical goods, your computer included.Apparently no one he was talking to in emergency services knew either, it went for some distance before it all came to a nasty end.

Does that work on all push button cars Bex? I hadn't really thought about them until now. I know our landcruiser won't turn off once rolling with a normal press but have never tried a long press, will have to try it when the better half comes home at the end of the week.

 

 

[Geoff13]

Or maybe you could just knock it into neutral?

 

 

[Mewp]

If going to test just be aware when killing the engine by holding the button in also kills any other equipment including the electric power steering which becomes very heavy.

 

 

[IBob]

Kevin may have set the standard: 3 counties at 130mph:

 

The accelerator has jammed, the brakes have burned out and I'm trapped in my BMW doing 130mph

 

 

[turboplanner]

Or maybe you could just knock it into neutral?

I've got some sympathy for these people; engine runaway is one of those things that you don't normally build into your subconscious, and considerable time can elapse before your mind gets into gear with a solution.

Growing up on a farm, I've been involved in some very entertaining moments.

 

Stationary engines led the pack, and the switches often failed, or the earth blade to the top of the spark plug broke and no one replaced it. A bag of wheat might be caught at the top of the elevator, or someone's coat might be caught in a chain, and they were starting to depart the scene up the chain. You'd have to move fast and you'd run for a screwdrivers, or any piece of metal.

 

Often things would go wrong and you'd become the short, and you were expected to hang on until the engine stopped.

 

In some cases you could throw a lump of 4x2 or a tree root into the chain or belt, particularly if you were operating a swing saw or belt saw.

 

I've seen a bucket of water used on the spark plugs to slow the engine down enough to make it stall.

 

In the fuel industry, if there's a spill, or other reason for heavy fumes, a diesel powered tanker can suck in the fumes and get into a runaway situation where cutting off its fuel has no effect because it's sniffing huge volumes of petrol fumes, hence the runaway. The likely result is a rod through the side, a lot of over-heat and a possible fire. So we fit engine stranglers to all tanker prime movers. You can hit a button in the truck, or outside it, and that triggers a powder fire extinguisher to remove the oxygen. The engine needs a complete pull down and re-assembly to get the power out. Fortunately a runaway is almost non-existent now due to better conditions around refineries.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Interesting, Turbs. Runaway Diesel engines were discussed recently by our rescue squad. One member recalled having tried to stifle one with his hand over the intake. Not clever.

 

We've trained on stopping locos, but we must get up to date on your engine stranglers.

 

 

[IBob]

Interesting, Turbs. Runaway Diesel engines were discussed recently by our rescue squad. One member recalled having tried to stifle one with his hand over the intake. Not clever.We've trained on stopping locos, but we must get up to date on your engine stranglers.

".......stopping locos......."

Don't you need a cape and special underpants for that???

 

 

[onetrack]

A piece of heavy ply was always kept handy in most heavy diesel workshops, ready to whack over the intake pipe to strangle them, if they took off, out of control.

 

Governor mechanical failures aren't unknown on diesels, and once that happens, you have no control over engine speed.

 

GM or Detroit Diesels were notorious for "runaways" on startup after a long period of sitting, without being run.

 

Diesel fuel dries out and forms a heavy gum that seizes injection components. The GM/Detroit used a combination pump and injector, and when these seized, they seized wide open, because the fuel rack reverts to WOT upon shutdown.

 

Another reason for diesel runaways is oil entering the engine from a turbocharger bearing failure. This will damage the turbocharger piston ring seal, and pour oil into the intake, providing an uncontrollable extra fuel source, leading to serious engine overspeed.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Or maybe you could just knock it into neutral?

Some you can, some you can not. Automatics obviously.

 

Does that work on all push button cars Bex? I

Supposed to, I am not aware of all cars though.

 

 

[turboplanner]

We can throw this little problem on to the steepening mountain that the designers of autonomous cars and trucks have to address if the manufacturers are not to have egg all over their faces.

 

 

[onetrack]

The "runaway car" complaint is not quite as simple to fix, as it sounds - particularly if;

 

1. You are unfamiliar with the vehicle (now, we've got a 2012 keyless Camry, and I didn't even know you have to hold the start button down for 3 seconds to get the engine to stop, once moving)

 

2. You're not mechanically-minded, and are not used to sudden changes in driving feel, such as a hard brake pedal when you have no power assist.

 

3. You have a faulty ignition barrel that sticks (common with a number of GM vehicles)

 

4. You're not mechanically-inclined, and suddenly faced with a need to deal with multiple issues, such as carefully selecting neutral, turning off the ignition, avoiding tailgating traffic, and dealing with other road hazards - at high speed.

 

Everything happens very fast at high speed - and I mean, very fast.

 

I used to own a 5L V8 HQ Holden that was capable of outrunning an E36 Charger (and I actually did that to an RTA Charger!).

 

I used to drive that HQ like I was Fangio - and one of the things I learnt quickly, was that curves on gravel roads that were modest curves at 100kmh - became very sharp curves at 190kmh! (I hasten to add, this was pre-blanket speed limits).

 

So for someone who was a relatively inexperienced driver, easily panicked and terrified by high speeds, to experience an emergency - just the sheer effort involved in trying to keep the vehicle under control at 180 to 200kmh would be very taxing for them, and lead to panic - where cool, calm, collected thinking was required.

 

Toyota's runaway-car worries may not stop at floor mats

 

I can recall a few driving emergencies that got my attention -

 

1. Blowing a front tyre on a tandem tipper at highway speed, and being completely unable to stop the truck heading into the bush, due to the massive drag of a totally deflated tyre, plus the drag of the wheel rim.

 

Of course, that was also in the days of no power steering and crossply tyres, too. Fortunately, it was the LH front tyre.

 

2. Driving through a farm paddock, and going to check on the water level in a dam by driving up over the dam bank at about 40 kmh - then suddenly finding out, I apparently had no brakes!

 

What had happened, was - on the vacuum hose between the engine and brake booster, the inner lining of the hose had peeled off, and balled up inside the hose - leading to zero vacuum assist.

 

It took a couple of seconds to realise I still had brakes, just a hard pedal, instead. However, heading straight over a dam bank, and right towards the water, wasn't exactly the ideal place to find one suddenly had no brake power assist!

 

3. Tooling along a beautiful, wide, smooth, country gravel road, at 110kmh, that I had never driven on before - then coming to a smooth, gradual RH curve, that went up over a rise - and then suddenly finding an unmarked, 90 degree, 30kmh, LH bend, just over the top of the rise!!

 

As the old saying goes, "right about then, things got busy!". I can remember sliding sideways up the road for about 150 metres, with nose of the HQ pointing across the road, while the rear bumper flattened bushes wholesale, whilst going sideways up the roadside drain! But I kept her upright, and got her back on the road. However, there was a change of underwear needed.

 

It's easy to criticise people for being unable to keep control of a vehicle when things go wrong - but a large number of people have only minimal driving skills, lack proper and thorough vehicle-control training, and have little driving experience.

 

I'm just thankful I had a country upbringing from my teenage years, and we had plenty of gravel road driving experience, and we could practise high-speed drifting on dirt roads with no traffic, and learn how to keep vehicles under control at speed, regardless of conditions or emergencies.

 

 

[Geoff13]

A piece of heavy ply was always kept handy in most heavy diesel workshops, ready to whack over the intake pipe to strangle them, if they took off, out of control.

Absolutely.

 

It's easy to criticise people for being unable to keep control of a vehicle when things go wrong - but a large number of people have only minimal driving skills, lack proper and thorough vehicle-control training, and have little driving experience. I'm just thankful I had a country upbringing from my teenage years, and we had plenty of gravel road driving experience, and we could practise high-speed drifting on dirt roads with no traffic, and learn how to keep vehicles under control at speed, regardless of conditions or emergencies.

I agree with the Country upbringing and dirt experience. Both invaluable in my opinion.

 

In addition I had a Father who made me reverse over my own wheel tracks for over a mile on a wet muddy road with the instruction not to let him see a second set of tracks.

 

And the day I went for my licence test he made me do a hill start on a dirt track out of a creek bed, but before that I had to get out and put his cigarettes under the rear tyre.

 

His comment that day was if you crush my smoke you are not using my car for your test.

 

 

[Guest extralite]

Around 80 percent of drivers rate themselves above average. Wonder if pilots are the same.

 

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3730094

 

 

[turboplanner]

Around 80 percent of drivers rate themselves above average. Wonder if pilots are the same.

Sociology can be a fascinating subject to study at times; we often overrate ourselves, we often buy the opposite of what we preach etc.

Being above average doesn't help you much when a catastrophic mechanical failure occurs, or when the accident is caused by negligence of a third party.

 

I have a friend who has been hit and rolled over in a marked police car in Melbourne's CBD - twice! On both occasions the approach and hit were behind the eyesight arc, so there was no warning before the hit.

 

In the 1980's, when we were tightening up safety in speedway in Victoria, four highly skilled speedway drivers were killed in accidents on the road, where their considerable skills, at legal speeds, were not able to make a difference. That sort of thing makes you ask some interesting questions about your own methods of staying safe of the roads.